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Author Topic: Zeitgeist Deception - Producer no longer feels 9/11 was an inside job  (Read 327284 times)
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« Reply #2080 on: January 29, 2009, 09:30:57 PM »

From Andrewgreve: http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=62764.msg331707#msg331707

A great response to Zeitgeist Adendum I found on http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/47/science-math-philosophy/zeitgeist-addendum-316322/#post6522706 :

"Re: Zeitgeist: Addendum
Zeitgeist Addendum is very anarcho-communist (I wanted to say anarcho-syndicalist, but it's not even that).

They say that specialization (and thus division of labour) as well as money is not needed, and that we can just let the robots make everything. This is quit obviously a pipe-dream by a confused engineer who has no understanding of economics.

If you have no money, that means you have no trade. If you have no trade, then either 99% of the world population dies, or you have no property rights (and everything is believed to be collectively owned) and 90% of the world population dies and we're back to the stone age within 100 years.

Money is a tool for trading whereby the money is a good but it is also used specifically for more efficient trading. When you have money you can do cost calculation and it's more divisible. Money and trading are at the absolute epicenter of human progress. Now, today our money might be monopolized and abused, but that doesn't mean that the concept of money is not useful. The problem here is the monopolization of money and the inevitable consequences of that.

The same holds true for specialization and division of labour. It's a brilliant human invention and is a cornerstone of our human progress. But, what governments, bureaucrats and soldiers, etc, do is they specialize not in something useful but in something parasitic and detrimental. What could possibly be bad about specializing in cooking or building houses or singing songs? What is wrong today is not division of labour but division of looting, division of extortion, division of propaganda, etc. And just like with money, specialization in detrimental things is an inevitable consequence of a territory monopoly, i.e. a country based not on property rights but on physical power (meaning governments don't own the land because they didn't voluntarily acquire it, instead they have taken hold of it and guard it, and anything that is developed in their territory).

It's possible that in the future a singularity kind of AI could take over all production. However, this has nothing to do with the problems we face today and absolutely cannot be proposed as a solution for any problems because we don't have them.

If you don't want to work and don't want to have anything to do with money, that's fine, but then you will become a forrest monk and rely on gifts for food. That's a personal choice. But don't suggest this for the whole world, and especially not if you're going to paint this lifestyle as a heaven of technology and progress and free ponies because that lifestyle is the complete opposite of that. Try a range retreat for 3 months sometime and we'll see if you're up for a lifestyle without property and asking for food every day.

The problem we have today is aggression. Violent monopolies are supported by virtually everyone. Just ask anyone on the street what would happen without a government monopoly on money, or on law; the answer is almost unilaterally that it would be pure chaos and blood in the street. If this is the answer of 95% of the people, then this should provide an insight on why something like the Federal Reserve is sustained and why there isn't a huge outcry when someone tries to start their own silver and gold-backed currency only to get raided by the FBI and thrown in jail with charges up to 25 years.
Only if people stop believing in institutionalized aggression, can we have real progress in the make-up of society. Because the raid by the FBI will be viewed as criminal and the people with the new currency as brave and virtuous entrepreneurs.


PS

I am the sole admin of the facebook Zeitgeist group with 63K+ subscribers, and I'm also the only person on Youtube who is hosting the full version (with over 100K views). But in my opinion, the maker of this documentary is good in finding problems and showing them to others through audio/video/commentary, but unless you understand economics (real economics, Austrian economics) the solutions that you can offer are fundamentally broken and actually quite dangerous, because you're pointing people to a totally wrong way, meaning we will have learned nothing from these problems."
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« Reply #2081 on: January 29, 2009, 09:33:49 PM »

From nowheretorun http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=64631.0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoKTmtoJQWA
Weird Illuminati symbolism in Zeitgeist

Timing is everything.
On September 29, the United States stock market crashed, falling 777 points. Just in time for the fallout, a worldwide financial collapse, the movie Zeitgeist Addendum was released. The film, right on cue, explains the obvious, how a flawed financial system failed, and how it exploited the hard work, savings and investments of all of those that lost their money to this system. It simultaneously heaps blame on free markets and religion, while calling for a global shift in consciousness.

This new paradigm is of course an old paradigm. It’s an open call for socialism. One need look no further than Karl Marx to see the parallels between Zeitgeist Addendum’s linking a distaste for free markets and religion. This should set off some rather loud alarm bells in the minds of patriotic and freedom loving Americans.

Most of those that have been actively observing the global elite have likewise understand that a pre-planned financial crash has been in the works for some time. Nickolas Sarozky president of the EU says he wants a new global economic system to rise out of the ashes of this crash which, in his own words is expressed as a "new world.” order.

Zeitgeist Addendum seems to further the cause for this New World Order, neo-socialist paradigm. With America politicians and representatives ignoring the masses and passing off the debt of banks on to the general public, one can see the seeds of new world socialism emerging right here in America. It’s no coincidence that just as the New World Order beings implementing marxist thought in so called free countries, Zeitgeist Addendum shows up to incite the masses in a global call for marxism.

If one should prefer to save 2 hours and skip watching Zeitgeist Addendum, its proposals are clearly spelled out in a relatively unknown book entitled “The Externalization of the Hierarchy” written by Alice Bailey. Actually Bailey claimed to have channeled an “Ascended Master” known as “the Tibetan” or Djwhal Khul who penned the book through her.

Bailey was also the founder of the theosophical Lucifer Trust (later changed to Lucis Trust). Please note, that the solution to the faltering global economy offered by Zeitgeist Addendum is "The Venus Project." Venus, also known as the morning star is synonymous with the term Lucifer.

Some of the highlights from Bailey’s The Externalization of the Heirarchy include the following:


Quote
"The problem of money will have to be faced; the problem of the distribution of wealth - whether natural or human - will need careful handling and a compromise reached between those nations which possess unlimited resources and those who have few or none; the problem of the varying forms of national government must be faced with courage and insight; the restoration - psychological, spiritual and physical - of mankind must constitute a primary responsibility. The sense of security must be put on a firm basis - the basis of right relationship, and not the basis of force. Men must feel secure because they are seeking to develop international goodwill and can trust each other, and are not therefore dependent upon the strength of their armies and fleets."

For those that have seen Zeitgeist Addendum, this should sound familiar, as it is the basis for the
entire film.

Bailey’s EOTH also includes specifics as to the nature of the New World Order and the following are just some of the links between Bailey’s work and Zeitgeist Addendum:


Quote
“The new world order will recognize that the produce of the world, the natural resources of the planet and its riches, belong to no one nation but should be shared by all. There will be no nations under the category "haves" and others under the opposite category. A fair and properly organized distribution of the wheat, the oil and the mineral wealth of the world will be developed, based upon the needs of each nation, upon its own internal resources and the requirements of its people. All this will be worked out in relation to the whole.”

“The new world order will be founded on the recognition that all men are equal in origin and goal but that all are at differing stages of evolutionary development; that personal integrity, intelligence, vision and experience, plus a marked goodwill, should indicate leadership. The domination of the proletariat over the aristocracy and bourgeoisie, as in Russia, or the domination of an entrenched aristocracy over the proletariat and middle classes, as has been until lately the case in Great Britain, must disappear. The control of labor by capital or the control of capital by labor must also go.” 

“In the new world order, the governing body in any nation should be composed of those who work for the greatest good of the greatest number and who at the same time offer opportunity to all, seeing to it that the individual is left free. Today the men of vision are achieving recognition, thus making possible a right choice of leaders. It was not possible until this century.” 

“The new world order will be founded on an active sense of responsibility. The rule will be "all for one and one for all." This attitude among nations will have to be developed. It is not yet present.”
 

 “In the preparatory period for the new world order there will be a steady and regulated disarmament. It will not be optional. No nation will be permitted to produce and organize any equipment for destructive purposes or to infringe the security of any other nation. One of the first tasks of any future peace conference will be to regulate this matter and gradually see to the disarming of the nations.” 

“These are the simple and general premises upon which the new world order must begin its work. These preliminary stages must be kept fluid and experimental; the vision of possibility must never be lost, and the foundations must be preserved inviolate, but the intermediate processes and the experimentations must be carried forward by men who, having the best interests of the whole at heart, can change the detail of organization whilst preserving the life of the organism.”

One should first take into consideration the many similarities between Bailey and the marxist propaganda espoused in Zeitgeist Addendum. It is then a much simpler task to view the film’s open call for global socialism as one and the same as the New World Theosophical religious and social order being so aptly adhered to by the high level occultists that are, in fact the global elite.
In doing so, the following information should come as no shock and simply, further proof of collusion between two seemingly opposite groups. As you can see, they are no more opposite than Republican and Democrat. Outwardly so yes, but certainly behind the scenes both are controlled by the same invisible hand.

The Venus Project which has already in name been linked to Lucifer, is obviously a socialist movement. Founded by Jacque Fresco, upon first glance it may appear similar to one of the multitude of ill fated hippy communes of the 1960’s. But upon further study, it too is rooted in the same NWO/Occult/Theosophical belief structure.

One of the basic premises of The Venus Project is that we work towards having all of the Earth's resources as the common heritage of all the world's people. Anything less will simply result in a continuation of the same catalog of problems inherent in the present system.”

This is exactly what Bailey wrote of in The Externalization of the Hierarchy. The links between The Venus Project and the essence of Secret Societies does however run even deeper than the call for a communistic sharing of world resources.

33rd degree masonic author Manley P Hall said of America’s link to the new Atlantis, “The New Atlantis sets forth an ideal government of the earth. It foretells that day when in the midst of men there shall rise up a vast institution composed of the philosophic elect -- an order of illumined men banded together for the purpose of investigating the laws of life and the mysteries of the universe … The age of boundaries is closing, and we are approaching a nobler era when nations shall be no more; when the lines of race and caste shall be wiped out; when the whole earth shall be under one order, one government, one administrative body." -Manly P Hall "Lectures on
Ancient Philosophy," published by the Philosophical Research Society Inc, Los Angeles (1970)”

Hall, along side of Rosicrucians like Francis Bacon, clearly defined the New World Order’s drive to recreate Atlantis, and this theme clearly “resurfaces” in Fresco’s “architecture”, specifically in his “Circular City”. (pictured on the right)


The Circular City image (above) is one that is notably comparable to artistic visions of Atlantis based upon Plato’s description of the sunken city (below).



Another warning sign of Fresco’s New World Order mentality is
his desire to see technology steering mankind’s destiny. Many
patriots shiver at the idea of biometric identification, specifically
the idea of implantable microchips that could be used to track and
control humans in ways up until recently only envisioned in the
Bible. Fresco’s vision for the future of humanity goes well beyond
that of a simple microchip implant. He foresees humanity needing
to merge with machine or else risk de-evolution.


Quote
“When biological technology becomes further advanced, human beings as we know them, will become a modified species. If we as human beings fail to include the possibility of this development in our overall, social evolution we will witness the decline of our species” -Jacque Fresco The Best that Money Can’t buy, Beyond Politics, Poverty, & War.

These are not mere coincidences. While seemingly “revolutionary” in thought, Fresco and his school of thought as espoused by the Zeitgeist vision of rebellion against the system are part and parcel of the same social upheaval being called for, not by humanitarians, but by those that have
been planning for the New World Order from it’s earliest stages.

It should also be noted that Zeitgeist Addendum begins and ends with speaking from Krisnamurti who was raised from boyhood by the Theosophical Society to be a "world teacher". Even though he broke from the group after declining to be the messiah he maintained a friendly relationship by most accounts.

 This is not unlike others within the “Truth Movement” such as Michael Tsarion, who openly admits he was, from an early age taught by theosophist if not raised by them. his connections to the group are quite interesting.

This peculiar affinity with the occult is nothing out of the ordinary with Zeitgeist. Part 1 of the initial Zeitgeist film was based on the work of a man that loved theosophy so much he apprently named himself Jordan Maxwell after Helena Blavatsky's "Jordanus Maximus". (see also Debunking Jordan Maxwell)


Before discounting the political power of Theosophy and its desire to infiltrate the truth seekers you need to understand its concept of seed groups. These groups were sent forth to work in stealth so as to be nurtured without competition from those that would see them for what they truly are. When one wonders how or why anyone offering truth about the occult could in fact be
part of the New World Order, they need look no further than Alice Bailey.

One of the most specific goals of the theosophist, as dictated in The Externalization of the Hierarchy is the following:


Quote
“The education of the advanced thinkers, of the aspirants and world disciples in applied knowledge, expressed wisdom and occult understanding. This group synthesizes all that is available in the other two groups and thus forms the nucleus of the Kingdom of God, of the fifth kingdom which is so rapidly coming into being.”

According to the Theosophy, starting with it’s founder Blavatsky, god is really Lucifer. This is luciferian theology, not Christian doctrine.


Quote
“The devil is now called Darkness by the Church, whereas, in the Bible he is called the "Son of God", the bright star of the early morning, Lucifer. There is a whole philosophy of dogmatic craft in the reason why the first Archangel, who sprang from the depths of Chaos, was called Lux (Lucifer), the "Luminous Son of the Morning," or man- vantaric Dawn. He was transformed by the Church into Lucifer or Satan, because he is higher and older than Jehovah, and had to be sacrificed to the new dogma. -Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine

Zeitgeist Addendum held over one central theme from its predecessor, that Jesus was and is just another name for all of the other gods of antiquity. Unfortunately in Zeitgeist’s extensive reference material webpage and/or reference book there is nothing that specifically backs up any of these claims.
If you can prove the claims in Part 1 of
Zeitgeist, by all means follow the links and win yourself some money.
http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/Challenge.html
http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/

There is actually a good reason why theosophy wants to particularly discredit this on particular religion this youtube video by a non-christian sums it up nicely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPXc1QcmYDY

It should be noted that any critical thinker can’t help but to agree with many of the practical points and issues raised in the Zeitgeist Addendum. It is however, so very important to be cautious about who we as truth seekers run to while trying to seek understanding in these confusing times.

The key to understanding why the New World Order has chosen to expose itself lies in Bailey’s Externalization of the Heirarchy.

“The new world order must be appropriate to a world which has passed through a destructive crisis and to a humanity which is badly shattered by the experience. The new world order must lay the foundation for a future world order which will be possible only after a time of recovery, of reconstruction, and of rebuilding.”

You know about Bohemian Grove. You know the signs and symbols that prove the elitists working towards a New World Order are part of a luciferian death cult. Now you need to ask yourself why those working to expose the New World Order are also linked to the same luciferian and occult beliefs.

The New World Order seems to have emerged to play the scapegoat for the order that will follow it. This second world order is the Theosophists’ Kingdom of God. Blavatsky told us who their god is. It is Lucifer. And how better a way to have a luciferian antichrist arrive on the scene, to be taken seriously by all as he crushes the New World Order, seemingly rescuing all of humanity
from the clutches of its tyrannical all seeing eye.

Some more interesting articles on Zeitgeist 2 Addendum

Zeitgeist 2 propagandizing natural law!!
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1439;sa=showPosts

Zeitgeist Addendum = Steaming Pile of NWO Propaganda
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/67072

Alex Jones Tv:Zeitgeist Addendum"The Review"1/3
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyQtN4HY4Ko[/media]

My take on Zeitgeist: Addendum and The Venus Project.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread399375/pg1
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« Reply #2082 on: January 29, 2009, 09:37:52 PM »

When I started reading the Forum posts, I couldn't understand all the negative comments about Zeitgeist Addendum because I hadn't realized that Forum members were talking about the separate Venus Project section. I think Alex agrees that the Zeitgeist film itself is generally a good thing, except for its ham-handed bashing of religion.

The Venus Project, on the other hand, which is mostly the work of Roxanne Meadows and Jacques Bresco (whom I heard interviewed on The Zone on its Genesis stream), but which has influenced Peter Joseph's thinking; is a utopian socialist concept. Utopian socialism is the early 19th century doctrine that says that people can solve the major social and economic problems if they are only better informed; and, additionally, that the existing system can be reformed to the point where it solves the major social and economic contraditions. It was first espoused in the revolutionary period of capitalism, when a certain amount of free enterprise was possible. One of the major proposals was for a national bank (Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, 1809–1865) that could be used to fund progressive and egalitarian reforms. Another utopian-socialist scheme was the New Lamarck Community of progressive industrialis Robert Owen in Scotland, which was the model for a commune movement in America
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Lanark).

For a critical history of utopian socialism, read Frederich Engels's Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, Chapter I "The Development of Utopian Socialism" http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch01.htm. The rejection of utopian socialism by Marxists was on the basis of the degeneration of capitalism and the need for thoroughgoing social revolutions (not just political overthrows) led by the working class (which is degenerate capitalism's nemesis).

The blood that flowed in the early period of the Great French Revolution (the "Terrror") was an act of defense against the monarchies of Europe, who were besieging France. Spreading the Revolution was a more effective method. The world can thank John Adams and George Washington for much of the blood: had they declared their solidarity with the French revolutionists, it would have been far less necessary.

I disagree with Peter Joseph that righteous anger (as Alex showed in the interview) is irrational. I generally distrust the unemotional, disinterested intellect.

Utopian socialism is grounded in idealism - a dull intellectual tool. Peter Joseph tellingly uses the term "materialism" as if it meant "avarice" or "acquisitiveness". This reflects the slander against the Philosophy of Materialism perpetrated by the Stoics and adopted by the official Constantinian Church.

Peter Joseph is right on one major point. Systems in their decadence are wasteful, inefficient, and reactionary. Free enterprise is impossible under decadent capitalism because decadent capitalism thwarts innovation and personal freedom to revolutionize the means by which civilization advances itself, and promotes monopoly. The ideals of many of the utopian socialists are positive, but their almost total ignorance of the mechanics of history renders their ideas useless - or, in a word, utopian.
 

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« Reply #2083 on: January 29, 2009, 09:43:27 PM »




Well we are not talking about little pink bunnies here ... so-called Theosophy was Hitler's "Religion", for Christ's sake.

Theosophy is the OCCULT ... plain and simple ... it is MAGIC, it is ROSICRUCIANISM, it is the MYSTERY RELIGIONS as passed down through the centuries since before Egyptian times.

Yes, Blavatsky and her 19th C practitioners codified it a bit, updated some of the lingo, etc ... but it is the SAME thing.

Welcome to the Official Website of Theosophical Society, Adyar
International Headquarters, Chennai , India
http://www.ts-adyar.org/index.html

~~~~~

Theosophy Library Online
H. P. Blavatsky - William Q. Judge - Robert Crosbie - Raghavan N. Iyer - Other
http://theosophy.org/

THEOSOPHY and WORLD GOVERNMENT:

http://www.ldsfreemen.com/christopher-s.-bentley/sign-me-up-for-world-government-bentley.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~  O  ~~~~~~~~~~~

UTOPIA, first coined by Sir Thomas Moore in the 16th century in his book by the same name, is defined as, "... an imaginary place where everything is perfect". It is fine to imagine such a place ... the same as HEAVEN ... and to strive for perfection.

PROBLEM = Perfect has about as many different meanings as there are people in the world.

~~~~~~~~~~

Those involved with the Venus Project may be well-meaning people for all I know ... I'm glad someone is trying to come up with some workable solutions.

And FRESCO reminds me of Buckminster Fuller (remember Spaceship Earth ~ and the geodesic dome?). I read him in college ... he was quiet the "thinking man's futurist" and philosopher for a couple decades ... very similar to Fresco.

“For the first time in history it is now possible to take care of everybody at a higher standard of living than any have ever known. Only ten years ago the ‘more with less’ technology reached the point where this could be done. All humanity now has the option to become enduringly successful.”

– R. Buckminster Fuller, 1980

http://www.bfi.org/node/15

http://inventors.about.com/od/dstartinventions/a/domes_2.htm


~~~~~~~ O ~~~~~~~

Fresco / VENUS also reminds me of Paolo Soleri / ARCOSANTI. I visited the site out in the high Arizona desert a couple times - interesting.

"The problem I am confronting is the present design of cities only a few stories high, stretching outward in unwieldy sprawl for miles. As a result of their sprawl, they literally transform the earth, turn farms into parking lots and waste enormous amounts of time and energy transporting people, goods and services over their expanses. My solution is urban implosion rather than explosion."

- Paolo Soleri

http://www.arcosanti.org/

FRESCO, FULLER and SOLERI each have attempted to re-organize society PHYSICALLY - ARCHITECTURALLY - with new 'city planning'. That's a good thing - the problem is when they or their followers try to re-organize society SPIRITUALLY - to place the people in their environments just like pieces of furniture. To homogenize humanity - one-size-fits-all.

We need to CHAMPION the individual - NOT the collective mind! That is for monarch butterflies and termites!

~~~~~~~ O ~~~~~~~

Zeitgeist Addendum: Toward a Technocratic, Communitarian, Cybernated Society

Saturday, October 18th, 2008 - by Terry Melanson

Peter Joseph is naive, and has been swayed by one after another “teacher.” In the first Zeitgeist - a Hegelian concept coined by Johann Gottfried Herder of the Bavarian Illuminati - he was obviously enamored with ‘Acharya S’ and her occult Theosophical “secret tradition” interpretation of ancient history. In ‘Addendum,’ he has found a few new (solution-oriented) gurus of the same ilk.

The one-time New Age Theosophical Christ-Maitreya, J. Krishnamurti — thrust upon the occult, Utopian socialist underground at the beginning of the 20th century by Theosophy head, Fabian socialist Annie Besant and pederast-Freemason, C.W. Leadbeater — begins and ends the film. For something that purports to espouse “a modern, non-superstitious based understanding” of the world, well, let’s just say that it is hypocritical and deceitful not to even identify the theosophical current throughout both films, or the outright socialism of the latest. Though Peter Joseph hasn’t admitted his Theosophical debt, at 1:35:37 he tips his hand by the obscure mention of “intellectual materialism” - a term used by Blavatsky herself in Lucifer magazine (also, see here for another theosophic source) - and touts the “true divinity” of Man (1:48:25). New Ager aka “economic hitman”-Perkins has experienced the seething energies of Lucifer as well. At 1:43:07 he talks of the bliss of connectedness and our “God spirit,” while an “Illumined” man makes a gesture with his hands of a triangle in front of the sun.

READ ENTIRE ARTICLE:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Blog/?tag=club-of-rome

~~~ OOO ~~~






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« Reply #2084 on: January 29, 2009, 09:46:13 PM »

ZA sucked donkey balls. I couldn't stand it after about 10 mins....
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« Reply #2085 on: January 29, 2009, 09:51:48 PM »

Could not the baby zebra be reacting to gravity and of course their would be instincts that would be part of the genetic make up, but as I said above, the environment is the cause of the animals instinctive reaction. I guess I think the nature reacts to the nurture.  something like that...?

Regardless, the fact that it reacts this way, and not that way, shows that it already has some innate knowledge. That a child will suckle at birth proves that the child already has an innate, inherent knowledge. She KNOWS to turn her head when her cheek is touched, and to latch onto the nipple. Now, she may not do it right, and that's where the "nurture" comes in. The mother corrects the latch, and babe and mother go on with their lives. An insignificant event, perhaps... unless the mother didn't know what to do. If she didn't know what to do, an altogether different outcome would occur. If the child's latch is incorrect, the mother soon begins to suffer, and after a time would be unable to continue nursing the child, who would then die (in a natural situation without the support of bottles). So this seemingly inconsequential event shows the combination of nature and nurture. The mother could not correct the baby's latch, if the baby couldn't even latch to begin with. I highly doubt that babe is reacting to the gravity of mommy's nipple... It's an innate understanding, an innate knowledge, to try to latch on and suck. To do it properly may require some nurture.

Then this moves on up the line, as life continues. A child innately knows to attempt to lie to prevent facing parental anger. So the parents teach the child that the consequence of lying is worse than the consequence of being honest about doing a bad thing. Or... the parents DON'T teach the child this, and the child becomes an habitual liar. But the innate fear of parental anger is the catalyst for the lying. The child innately understands to avoid things that bring him EMOTIONAL pain, as well as physical pain. This is not learned, it's known- we all know we don't like pain.

It's a combination. Adoptees mirror the likes and dislikes of their original parents much of the time. I keep coming back to this because it's the most telling example we have of 'nature versus nurture.' Adoptees may not know their parents of origin until adulthood. Then they meet them, and they finally understand why they are SO different from the people they grew up with. Why did I like Sci Fi, when everyone in my family thought I was an idiot for even being remotely interested in it? Well, my real father loves it. Ah HA! Why do I always chew on my lower lip when I read? My real mother does that. Ah HA! From small mannerisms, to the way they laugh, to their likes and dislikes, may mirror people they haven't met since birth.

If it were all environmental, this would not be the case. They would be able to entirely blend in with their adoptive family, outside of appearance, possibly. They would pick up the mannerisms and likes of their adoptive family. They would like the same foods, enjoy the same passtimes... yet this is often not the case. In fact, it's one of the biggest problems with adoption-- people are told that this will be THEIR child. Then imagine their shock when they find out their new football star prefers to read and play on the computer. Where did they go wrong? What's WRONG with this broken child? Nothing, he's just like the family he was born into, that's all.

A combination. You can argue degrees if you like, but to argue that it's one but NOT also the other, simply cannot succeed when faced with the evidence.

The zebra knows to try walking "in the presence of gravity." Babies know to try to nurse when something touches their cheek. This is innate knowledge.
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« Reply #2086 on: January 30, 2009, 01:56:15 AM »

No offense to the one who brought up IQ scores as an indicator of genetic influence, but I'd like to point out that IQ scores were INVENTED by the EUGENICISTS.

You can't quantify intelligence - it's BS.

On the other hand, I do not think a baby is a blank slate. The Zeitgeist guys push their ideas to an extreme so that only their promulgated solution is workable. Like the global warming crowd, they are unable to listen to opposing viewpoints and are stuck in an almost religiously fundamentalist viewpoint - that of having 'no religion' and 'no money', which is just as restrictive and oppressive as the control they purport to rally against.
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« Reply #2087 on: January 30, 2009, 04:52:44 AM »

Well it's obvious we still have a long way to go.

And Sane, you lost all credibility in bashing the Z movement when you posted ZB's views. His is an NWO ELITIST agenda. That is NOT what Zeitgeist is about. Blavatsky, ZB, Rockafeller, etc. are about an ELITIST technocracy.

AGAIN, ONCE AGAIN, WE can take this world or we can give it to them.

The Zeitgeist agenda is NOT about having an ELITE. It is NOT eugenics. If you still think so then you already have your preconceived notions and will not be swayed. My point is not to sway your opinion. I don't care what you believe or think. But there is a lot of good in the message and my only fear is that you're going to ruin the message for another who may make an impact in the future.

You already have it out for the Z agenda, that much is clear, but at least bash the Z agenda using the facts of the agenda itself and not other movements who only have mere kernels of information in common.

For instance, religion is not the main argument in Z. However, I cannot see Z being made without the religion card being played. Why? Because religion seperates people and hinders creative ideas and progress.

Now post more web pages and posts of how people call the movement evil, and lump other evil elitists into the group when they don't even belong.

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« Reply #2088 on: January 30, 2009, 04:57:17 AM »

I think what it takes for the the Z Za ideas to materialize is: Trust , Compassion , Respect , and a reduction of ego intensities which are primarily fear based reactions to perceived threats to an individuals' sustenance.

Exactly. That's why people keep posting these links and quotes that lump the Z movement with other EEEEVVVIIILLLL Elitist movements when they don't belong. It's easy to disregard or shun the movement because it's so hard to fathom but, most of all, it also causes them to rethink their deeply held belief systems and, more importantly, their world paradigm.

However, people once thought the world was flat. People once thought the sun revolved around the Earth. We advanced far beyond that. These were paradigms and they were forced to change in order to advance to a higher level intillectually. Religion was a serious barrier to the sun around the Earth movement but science prevailed. That's only one example of how religion is hindering progression.

It's scary to think there's another way of doing things. That fight or flight response causes fights, it causes wars and it also causes bickering and sheite throwing in forums just like this one.  Grin
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« Reply #2089 on: January 30, 2009, 05:01:59 AM »

"No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian Initiation."
David Spangler, Director of Planetary Initiative, United Nations

I know that quote. But what has that got to do with the Z movement? The UN is not part of the Z movement. In fact, in his interviews, PJ demonizes the UN because it pits nations against each other. By its very nature it's seperatist, it's confrontational. This goes against the very grain of what the Z movement is all about.

Again, don't lump others into the movement when they're clearly serving a different, ELITIST, agenda.

I don't disagree that there is a NWO elitist agenda going on. We all know this. But the Z movement is about a NON-Elitist future; where we ALL have the power.

The Prison Planet group and the Z movement group are not mutually exclusive. We're all basically going after the main prize which is to take back the Earth for ourselves. All of this seperation and bickering is only hindering us. Infighting will only succeed in strengthening the enemy.
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« Reply #2090 on: January 30, 2009, 05:06:20 AM »

however, relying on the good nature of people to carry us to this land of plenty is flimsy in my opinion, and doesnt hold a candle to the morality and just notion of Liberty, that of do unto others as you would have them do to you. individual sovereignty is still the most moral, just, fair way to view humanity in my opnion.

Do unto others. Great message! However, as long as there's scarcity, people will always have competition against each other. There will always be some who don't have enough and will then resort to crime and theivery to get what they want and need.

When there's abundance, when there are no haves and have nots, there won't be a need for crime, to steal, to compete. It's a fantastic and out there idea, I get that. I'm not saying it's perfect or that it will even work within our lifetime or even within two thousand years. But it's a system that should be tried. For humans to be civilized, this system would need to work. You see what I mean? As long as we have poor and indigent, we'll always have crime and wars. That's not civilized. A free system inately creates a poor caste. It's like musical chairs; someone's going to go without. How can we advance when we're holding down some of our own by the very nature of the system in which we live?
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« Reply #2091 on: January 30, 2009, 05:23:46 AM »

Well it's obvious we still have a long way to go.

And Sane, you lost all credibility in bashing the Z movement when you posted ZB's views. His is an NWO ELITIST agenda. That is NOT what Zeitgeist is about. Blavatsky, ZB, Rockafeller, etc. are about an ELITIST technocracy.

ZB is a theosophist, what are you talking about? The Z movement follows ZB's, Blavatsky's, Rockefeller's, Rothschild's design.  It is an extension of Blavatsy's design.  Have you even researched this, or are you just spouting off nonsense hoping that someone will believe it?

Quote
AGAIN, ONCE AGAIN, WE can take this world or we can give it to them.

This world is not ours to take or give, ar you nuts?  It does not belong to us and it sure as heck does not belong to the granmd architect.

Quote
The Zeitgeist agenda is NOT about having an ELITE. It is NOT eugenics. If you still think so then you already have your preconceived notions and will not be swayed. My point is not to sway your opinion. I don't care what you believe or think. But there is a lot of good in the message and my only fear is that you're going to ruin the message for another who may make an impact in the future.

The ZA and Venus project is all about a central control scientific technoacracy.  Who do you think is going to run this utopia?  The only way around elitism is through local power rather than central power.

Quote
You already have it out for the Z agenda, that much is clear, but at least bash the Z agenda using the facts of the agenda itself and not other movements who only have mere kernels of information in common.

What other movements are you referring to?

Quote
For instance, religion is not the main argument in Z. However, I cannot see Z being made without the religion card being played. Why? Because religion seperates people and hinders creative ideas and progress.

Religion does not separate people.  Elites who have hijacked religions have used them to separate people.  This is problem/reaction/solution.  People are individuals, we have indivual thoughts.  Banishing individualism will not solve anything.

Quote
Now post more web pages and posts of how people call the movement evil, and lump other evil elitists into the group when they don't even belong.



what are you talking about? these are not random webpages, they are very complex posts by articulate, logical, and thoughtful people. Have you even read them?
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« Reply #2092 on: January 30, 2009, 05:27:29 AM »

For the second time,I am agnostic(a search maybe?)

While I'm not "against Zeitgeist"(don't you just hate it when people forces you to be for or against?) I am certainly 100% opposed to the dystopia envisioned and proposed in the film.

It's interesting to see that the movie delves into the reality of ancient history,the mistakes,lies and evils of the past and still pushing for an identical vision of the future.A 100% rose-glasses future as Aldous Huxley would've been so proud of and what exactly the elite wants.

A technocracy,a perfect world in appearance,mistakes are joyfully accepted,lies are completely covered and no apparent evil exist anymore.

In the end,I fail to see how everyone with NO exception living in a Mega-City fits in with my ideas on Freedom/Liberty.
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« Reply #2093 on: January 30, 2009, 05:32:46 AM »

I know that quote. But what has that got to do with the Z movement? The UN is not part of the Z movement. In fact, in his interviews, PJ demonizes the UN because it pits nations against each other. By its very nature it's seperatist, it's confrontational. This goes against the very grain of what the Z movement is all about.

Again, don't lump others into the movement when they're clearly serving a different, ELITIST, agenda.

I don't disagree that there is a NWO elitist agenda going on. We all know this. But the Z movement is about a NON-Elitist future; where we ALL have the power.

The Prison Planet group and the Z movement group are not mutually exclusive. We're all basically going after the main prize which is to take back the Earth for ourselves. All of this seperation and bickering is only hindering us. Infighting will only succeed in strengthening the enemy.

Theosophy is the religion of the Zeitgeist movement and the religion of the UN. It is luciferian.  They are the same religion. This is a known fact.

The Venus Project promotes a centralized scientific technocracy. The idea of a centralized anything is elitist in nature. This is a known fact.

The truth movement and the Z movement/Venus project are contradictory. The truth movement is about gaining more local power over the centralized control grids which limit truthful communication, discourse, investigations, etc. The Z movement is about promoting a centralized scientific technocracy and removing all local power structures like disparate religions and sovereign states.
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« Reply #2094 on: January 30, 2009, 05:44:31 AM »

From Biggs: http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=77876.0

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Hitler and the Occult
November 15, 2008 — popularsymbolism

http://popularsymbolism.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/return-to-castle-wolfenstein-hitler-and-the-occult/



Heinrich Himmler's Castle Wewelsburg served as the inspiration behind the fictional 'Castle Wolfenstein' in the game.
NOTE: This article was not written by me [the blog author], but is an English translation of a Dutch article by Frank G. Bosman that can be found here. I have added a couple of footnotes, but apart from that, nearly every sentence is identical to the original article. I have also corrected a minor mistake: the Blavatsky character in the game is not called ‘Helena Blavatsky’ (the name of the real-life Blavatsky, in fact), but rather ‘Marianna Blavatsky’.



The game Return to Castle Wolfenstein (2001) by id Software, Gray Matter Interactive, Nerve Software and Activision is a very violent ‘first-person shooter’. Besides being an excellent videogame in its own right, the storyline not only shows great creative imagination, but is also littered with occult and esoteric connotations. Nice work of fiction, or is there something more than meets the eye here?

Storyline


Return to Castle Wolfenstein is a remake of one of the very first FPS games, Wolfenstein 3D. The game’s setting is based on Castle Wewelsburg, a 17th century castle occupied by Reichsfuhrer SS Heinrich Himmler and reportedly used for the enactment of occult rituals.

Commando B.J. Blazkowicz is sent to Germany by the English military to investigate rumours surrounding Himmler’s personal pet project, the so-called SS Paranormal Division. During his excursions, the hero encounters (next to the regular German soldiers) strange reanimated corpses, sensual SS-women and (eventually) a reincarnation of the dark, Germanic warlord.

Esoteric elements

The suspense in the game is incredible: a combination between survival horror (behind every corner is an enemy trying to kill you) and an esoteric thriller. Even though the game is filled with occult-esoteric elements, for the purpose of this article I [the original author] will concentrate on a few plot elements from the game and attempt to put them in a historical perspective. It appears that much of Wolfenstein’s plot, rather than being pulled out of thin air, has a certain basis in historical fact.

Marianna Blavatsky




Left to right: (left) the 'fictionalized' version, Marianna Blavatsky; (right) Helena Blavatsky, author of The Secret Doctrine and Isis Unveiled. Dietrich Eckhart was quoted on his deathbed saying: 'Follow Hitler! He will dance, but it is I who have called the tune. I have initiated him into the 'Secret Doctrine', opened his centers in vision and given him the means to communicate with the Powers. Do not mourn for me: I shall have influenced history more than any other German.'
A female villain by the name of ‘Marianna Blavatsky’ plays a big role in the game. In the game, she has the rank of SS Oberfuhrer (a real paramilitary rank, the only liberty being taken here is that it was never offered to women). As far as the Nazis were concerned, women were supposed to take care of the family unit. (and the Nazis were hardly alone in this line of thinking) Blavatsky heads Himmler’s SS Paranormal Division.

In the beginning of the game her name only appears as the designated sender or receiver of SS Command documents. At the end of the game Blavatsky successfully resurrects the Germanic warlord Heinrich I from the dead, only to die by his own hand (a fate Heinrich will soon share with Helena if our hero Blazkowicz can help it) In the game, Blavatsky’s appearance is that of a cross between a 20th-century witch, SM dominatrix and a heathen priestess.

The similarities between this fictional priestess and its historical counterpart are too numerous for it to be merely a coincidence. Helena Blavatsky (1831 - 1891) is the founder of the Theosophical Society, which exists to this day. Under her leadership, she managed to turn Theosophy into a genuine philosophical-religious system. Theosophy is a collection of ideas with the central tenet that all the major world religions are attempts to reach the divine. Theosophy went through great changes due to the efforts of Christian esoteric, Jakob Boehme (1575-1624). Theosophists trace their ideas back to the ancient civilisations, such as India and ancient Greece, of which Plato (427-347 BC) and Plotinus (204-270) were regarded as important forebears of their movement.

What does Blavatsky and her Theosophical Society have to do with Adolf Hitler? They have everything to do with him and nothing at the very same time.

Electricity, racial purity and Aryanosophy




'We must raise a New Man. We must give the German people a new ideal, and this ideal must be forged together into a new life form. This is the greatest task in this century for our people.'* In his speech, Hitler was channeling Blavatsky's theory of the six root races - the Aryan was the fifth root race, and through the Nazis' extensive eugenics policies a new sixth root race would emerge. Lanz von Liebenfels' theory was that Aryans were the offspring of interstellar gods and electricity - fittingly, in Return to Castle Wolfenstein we see a recurrence of this theme.

Let’s return to the game. In the second half, Blazkowicz discovers that the Nazis are creating Ubersoldiers: half human, half machine creatures brought to life by electricity. Let’s focus on the electricity part. Electricity has been used previously as an elixir of life in popular fiction (Frankenstein: The Modern Prometheus by Mary Shelley is among the most popular examples), but for the purpose of this article we have to go to another book, the impossibly titled ‘Theozoology or the science of the Sodomite Apelings and the Divine Electron‘ by German author Lanz von Liebenfels (1874 - 1954).


Germany (Berlin) and Austria (Vienna) in the late 19th and early 20th century underwent many dramatic changes. From a political point of view, there was the fall of the Donau monarchy (the seperation between Austria and Hungary) and, later on, World War I [and Germany's eventual defeat]. Societal shifts, such as urbanisation, industrialisation and pluriformity caused additional friction.

In all this social and political turmoil arose a great many individual thinkers who tried to make sense of this rapidly changing world. Most of their ideas were innocent by nature (though tragically misguided), but there were exceptions. Some authors from Vienna and Berlin circles conspired to combine theosophy with their own interpretations of Germanic mythology (such as the ‘Edda’). This hotchpotch of ideas included the return of medieval fraternities, such as the Templar Knights [and Teutonic Knights].

Lanz von Liebenfels (1874 - 1954)

Most famous of this bunch were Lanz von Liebenfels (1874 - 1954) and Guido von List (1848 - 1919). Von Liebenfels, in his book ‘Theozoology‘, postulated his theory that “Aryans” were borne out of the sexual procreation between interstellar gods and electricity, while ‘Untermenschen’ were the result of a pairing between apes and inferior human root races. Therefore, he propagated the mass-castration of these “ape-like creatures”. He would later replace the terms “Theozoology” and “Aryo-Christendom’ by ‘Aryosophy’. In addition to this, he was also the founder of the Order of New Templars/Ordo Novi Templi (1915), complete with its own liturgy and hierarchy. Heinrich Himmler would later find himself drawn to this concept.

Guido von List (1848 - 1919)

Guido von List (1848 - 1919) was the other major philosophical thinker in this field. He was the inventor of Armanism (race of Aryans) and Wotanism (named after the Nordic god ‘Wotan‘ or more commonly known as ‘Wodan’). He also mixed his own interpretation of Germanic mythology with esoteric and theosophical elements.

Wewelsburg, Wiligut and Heinrich Himmler



Believing himself to be his reincarnation, King Heinrich I was to Himmler what King Nebuchadnezzar II was to Saddam Hussein. In the game, Blavatsky succeeds in resurrecting him, and leaves you holding the bag after she gets her come-uppance.
Some high-placed party members of the Nazi regime confessed to being part of a certain Aryosophic-like philosophy with occult-religious beliefs. Though the regime was in no way, shape or form bound to a religion (except for German protestantism, though this was used more for practical considerations), one of the most powerful men at the time was a self-admitted Nazi-occultist: SS-Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler.

Under the influence of Aryosophic guru, Karl Wiligut, Himmler reconstructed the old castle of Wewelsburg. (this castle also serves as the backdrop to the game Wolfenstein) The castle was redesigned under Himmler as an occult-spiritual Nazi cult site. Himmler had great plans for his SS unit: as purebred Aryans they were the spiritual descendants of the pre-christian, Germanic nature religion.1 This religion had to be reinstated with Himmler as its new high priest.

Himmler personally funded several expeditions to gather evidence of Aryan supremacy and the ancient Germanic religion, which included obtaining several religious objects, such as the Holy Grail. Two of the Indiana Jones movies cover this: Raiders of the Lost Ark (Ark of the Covenant/Ark of the Contract) and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (the Holy Grail).

Heinrich I (876 - 936)

Even though Himmler’s underlings (and even Hitler himself) did not think much of him, he took himself very seriously. Literally: the Totenkopfring, designed by Wiligut, was worn by SS members who were tasked with guarding the concentration camps and the execution of the Holocaust. Himmler regarded himself as a reincarnation of a German prince, Heinrich I, nicknamed ‘the Fowler’. This ‘fowler’ was successful in uniting the German tribes for the first time in history (though it didn’t last long), an idea that appealed to Himmler. He wanted all Aryan peoples to unite and form a super-race, of which his SS unit were to be the forebears.

In Wolfenstein, Heinrich I is locked up in 936 through the curse of a magician. Depicted as the reincarnation of evil in the game, he awaits patiently to be resurrected again, an event that actually occurs later on. Blavatsky resurrects Heinrich only to be killed in return. The game ends as Blazkowitz in turn defeats Heinrich.

Neo-Hitlerism



id Software named Wolfenstein 3D's 1992 sequel after Trevor Ravenscroft's bestselling book. id Software's close working partner, Raven Software, apparently went one step further and named the company after him.
After the end of World War II, most people could not fathom how Hitler could have succeeded in decimating the whole of Europe. Many even believed that Hitler did not really die in his bunker. Several books appeared, pseudo-scientific in nature, claiming Hitler was very much alive. Here are three examples of this theory:


Savitri Devi (1905 - 1982)

She connected Hitler’s Aryan ideology to the (pre-British) Hindu masters. The swastika symbolises the Aryan unity between Hindus and the Germanic peoples. Devi synthesized the Hindu philosophy of cyclical history with National Socialism. She claimed Adolf Hitler was an avatar of [the Hindu god] Vishnu.

Miguel Serrano (1917)

A [retired] Chilean diplomat and author of ‘The Golden Ribbon: Esoteric Hitlerism’ and ‘Hitler: The Last Avatar’. Supposedly, Hitler is not dead at all, but alive and well in ‘Shambhala‘, deep under the North Pole, where he is in contact with Hyperborean gods (including UFO’s). Serrano describes World War II as a battle between the forces of good (Vril Society) versus the forces of darkness (Jews).

Trevor Ravenscroft

Most famous [of the three] is Trevor Ravenscroft’s bestseller, ‘The Spear of Destiny‘ (1973). The complete title reads ‘TsOD’, or ‘The Occult Power Behind the Spear Which Pierced the Side of Christ’. The legendary spear that pierced Jesus’s side and later came under the possession of Roman [soldier], Longinus, is supposed to give the owner supernatural powers. (see Spear of Destiny in popular culture) Some of the people who have claimed ownership of the spear include Alexander the Great, Charles the Great and Hitler himself.

In a sense you could say that Return to Castle Wolfenstein is also a form of neo-Hitlerism2, albeit without revering Hitler and/or the Nazis.

Footnotes

1. [^]For an example of the lengths Himmler went to keep the bloodline of his SS officers ‘pure’, read the SS Marriage Order. SS personnel could only marry someone with a pure Aryan genetic makeup.

Link - http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_document.cfm?document_id=1505

2. [^]Return To Castle Wolfenstein has been criticized in a US Department of State report to the US Congress for ‘promoting anti-semitism’. The document, entitled ‘Contemporary Global Anti-semitism: A report provided to the United States Congress‘, lumps the game in with titles such as ‘Aryan 3′, ‘Kz Rattenjagd’ and ‘Kz Manager’.

Even by the US Congress’ previous track records when it comes to misrepresenting videogames (Joe Lieberman feigning outrage at Night Trap and Mortal Kombat, despite admitting he never played either of them), this seems like a stretch too far, considering the player gets to play a hero fighting the Nazis. But then again, for the author of this report to be aware of that would entail actually playing the games first before condemning them, and that analytical quality doesn’t seem to be in Gregg J. Rickman’s bag of tricks.

Link - http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/102301.pdf

*. Adolf Hitler, in one of his public speeches, lets the public in on his plans for what he terms a ‘New Man’/'new lifeform’. The public could not possibly know what he was referring to at the time and would have most likely taken it as a metaphor. What Hitler instead was referring to, was The Secret Doctrine’s postulated sixth root race.

According to Blavatsky, after the Atlanteans (the 4th root race) came the fifth, the Aryan race. Blavatsky believed that if the gene pool was kept pure, this root race would eventually evolve to the next level, the sixth. But she claimed that due to members of the Aryan race mating with people of Semitic origin, the gene pool became muddied, and therefore the sixth root race was never attained by Man. Lanz von Liebenfels, in his book ‘Theozoology’ proposed a radical solution to the ‘perceived’ problem, and Adolf Hitler saw to it that this was put into effect.

Link: - http://www.earthstation1.com/WWIIAudio/Hitler_on_%27new_life_form%27.wav
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« Reply #2095 on: January 30, 2009, 07:00:35 AM »

Theosophy is the religion of the Zeitgeist movement and the religion of the UN. It is luciferian.  They are the same religion. This is a known fact.

The Venus Project promotes a centralized scientific technocracy. The idea of a centralized anything is elitist in nature. This is a known fact.

The truth movement and the Z movement/Venus project are contradictory. The truth movement is about gaining more local power over the centralized control grids which limit truthful communication, discourse, investigations, etc. The Z movement is about promoting a centralized scientific technocracy and removing all local power structures like disparate religions and sovereign states.

I'm not trying to change your mind, Sane. It's obvious THAT's made up. However, lumping the Z movement with any religion, luciferian or otherwise, is doing it a great injustice. Whenever you hear the interviews PJ gives, he purposely strays away from religious sentiment completely; or, in other words, superstitious terms and ideas.

But let's assume you're correct, just for the sake of argument. It's all the devil. What if Christianity is actually the evil one. I don't believe it is, or isn't, but let's just run with this for a moment.

The Native American people worshipped the sun, the Earth, etc. This is just one example. All of a sudden, the white man came here and FORCED their Christianity on these people. Now wouldn't that be considered evil? Wouldn't that mean that Christianity is only the most popular religious belief because they have a better marketing team? That they are more driven in their ideals for world domination?

I think you could argue any point until you were blue in the face. You could post web pages and links arguing how Christ was actually Satan and vice versa. I bet I could also find pages where they link Hitler to a reincarnation of Jesus.

The point is, lumping Blavatsky, or ANY religious movement to the Z movement is akin to linking Hitler to Jesus because they both rallied a bunch of poeple to one idea or view point. No, it's like lumping God to Santa Clause because they both know when you've been naughty or nice.

They have the same ideas but only to an extent. The Z movement moves from religion to science.

Without scarcity, we wouldn't have an elite. What would they control? People are naturally either leaders or followers? Is that your argument? But put into a certain situation, can't we all lead? The strength is in all of us. It's just that we've been beaten down so much in this system that we see little hope in even considering another, a different, way of doing things.

Half a millenium ago we were ruled by Kings and Queens. They fed Christians to lions. A hundred thousand years ago our technology consisted of spear heads and fire. Things have advanced drastically. And they will continue to. Techology is going to advance, that much is clear. But without scarcity, we won't need an elite and there won't be an elite because there will be nothing for them to horde.

This is the main idea. It's not to put the mark of the beast on people's foreheads. It's not to make everyone make a pact with the devil. Jesus, where did this idea come from? Oh, right, Blavatsky. The Lucis Trust, which is a member of the UN, which is waiting on the Matreya to return. That's not the Z movement. They have nothing to do with each other except one calls for a move from religion to science (Zeitgeist) and the other calls for a move from one or many religions to one world religion plus science (Theosophy).

Yes, I have studied Theosophy. I have read books that call for all religions to be melded into one world religion with a figure head at the top. That's not Zeitgeist. There are those who lump the two and there are many websites dedicated to just this fact; YouTube videos too! But just because someone put a lot of work into finding associations with only a kernel of evidence doesn't make it fact.

The moment you can find on the Zeitgeist site anything about a one world religion, I will shut up and accept defeat in my argument.

If you can find anywhere on the Zeitgeist site about humans becoming cyborgs, I will shut up.

If you can find anywhere on the Zeitgeist sites, or any of their sister sites, about how they're working with ZB, Rockafeller, Kissinger, or any of their ilk, I will accept that you are correct.

The Zeitgeist movement is a beautiful idea, and it brings people together. I love this board and the Alex Jones sites because they expose the elite and their propaganda. It exposes what they're doing and the people here reveal through their own thoughts and ideas that their power is waning. That's awesome and I'm so glad to be apart of it. But I'm also glad to be a part of the Zeitgeist movement.

I reiterate. The two movements are not mutually exclusive. We are both against the elite and their strangle hold. You say the Earth is not ours. We may not own it but we live here and therefore should use the resources, in a clean and natural way, in order to sustain our lives. To say otherwise is going along with their Eugenics and Carbon tax BS.

Blavatsky, Pike, The Lucis Trust and Theosophy want something completely different. They want control. They want a caste system just like the Oligarchy we once knew. That's not good and that should be fought. That much I agree with you. But to deny that we deserve a better way, a freer way, a way where everyone can share everything equally, a way where the poor are no longer suffering, where they no longer have to be poor, where we are all equal...that's a movement we should all be behind; no matter how crazy or fantastic it sounds.

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« Reply #2096 on: January 30, 2009, 07:11:35 AM »

-where they no longer have to be poor, where we are all equal...that's a movement we should all be behind; no matter how crazy or fantastic it sounds]where they no longer have to be poor, where we are all equal...that's a movement we should all be behind; no matter how crazy or fantastic it sounds

Realize there are powerful bloodlines that have accumulated wealth and superior life qualities over the last centuries,what makes you think that,to get equal,they will let it all go to the world?

Speculate for a minute that they all(or most) agree(or have already agreed through Bilderberg conferences) to let it go.Do you really think this wouldn't just be to hide it from the rest definitely so that no one can ever say there IS an elite,while still living the oligarchy?

In such a society,the Clintons,Bushes or Sax-Coburg would live next door to you? ah! my friend your dream is beautiful.
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« Reply #2097 on: January 30, 2009, 07:12:20 AM »

The Zeitgeist Addendum Film Exposed
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9322809/The-Zeitgeist-Addendum-Film-Exposed

Enjoy.  Grin
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« Reply #2098 on: January 30, 2009, 07:14:13 AM »

Zeitgeist sources expossed.  Grin
http://www.bcrevolution.ca/zeitgoofed.htm
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« Reply #2099 on: January 30, 2009, 07:23:56 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_9ZyddjaM4

Just a clarification.
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« Reply #2100 on: January 30, 2009, 07:37:56 AM »

There are lots of sites debunking the debunkers, too. Try putting your own thoughts into words. It makes arguing so much more fun  Grin

I'm not trying to fight with anyone. That's not my intention. I'm trying to convey that new ideas are not always personified by a wolf in sheep's clothing. Take what you want from Zeitgeist and discard the rest. Or discard all of it. But the message is a good one and I think that's what people should take away from it; whether you believe in part or all of it.

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« Reply #2101 on: January 30, 2009, 07:44:09 AM »

Zeitgeist sources expossed.  Grin
http://www.bcrevolution.ca/zeitgoofed.htm


Oh man, that is gonna affect the attendence numbers at Z-Day.
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« Reply #2102 on: January 30, 2009, 07:47:11 AM »

There are lots of sites debunking the debunkers, too. Try putting your own thoughts into words. It makes arguing so much more fun  Grin

Huh?  Wat are you talking about? Who is debunking the fact that Venus Project = Theosophy = Luciferianism?

Quote
I'm not trying to fight with anyone. That's not my intention. I'm trying to convey that new ideas are not always personified by a wolf in sheep's clothing. Take what you want from Zeitgeist and discard the rest. Or discard all of it. But the message is a good one and I think that's what people should take away from it; whether you believe in part or all of it.

That makes a lot of sense.  But the issue is really with the Venus Project and ZA, not so much with Z.  It seems like the whole thing was a bait and switch.  But there are great part to Z (not so much with ZA) that have been used by others to explain the insane monetary system and false flag terrorism.


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« Reply #2103 on: January 30, 2009, 07:49:38 AM »

There are lots of sites debunking the debunkers, too. Try putting your own thoughts into words. It makes arguing so much more fun  Grin

I'm not trying to fight with anyone. That's not my intention. I'm trying to convey that new ideas are not always personified by a wolf in sheep's clothing. Take what you want from Zeitgeist and discard the rest. Or discard all of it. But the message is a good one and I think that's what people should take away from it; whether you believe in part or all of it.



Fine, can you verify any of ArhayaS/Mmurdocks, or Jordan's, or Tsarions work in any of the old original works??


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« Reply #2104 on: January 30, 2009, 07:52:11 AM »

I just have to ask, Sane... just curious.

Have you ever considered that maybe he, personally, honestly feels that this might be a solution? That there's no ulterior motive, maybe he honestly and on a personal level, feels that it's a viable solution?

I mean, no offense to you, but any time that someone holds different beliefs than you do, you tend to jump on the idea that we're "cointelpro" or out to get people or to mislead them into communism or whatever. Like we're evil scumbags out to destroy the world... we either agree with you on every point, or we're Ren and Stimpy.

Same with JTCoyote. It seems to be a mod thing here.

I'm not being ugly with you, honest. I like and admire you, you've got a brilliant mind.

But this seems to be one area in which you just cannot seem to accept the idea that people might TRULY have different feelings and viewpoints from you, but still not be out to harm or hurt anyone.
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« Reply #2105 on: January 30, 2009, 08:13:36 AM »

I just have to ask, Sane... just curious.

Have you ever considered that maybe he, personally, honestly feels that this might be a solution? That there's no ulterior motive, maybe he honestly and on a personal level, feels that it's a viable solution?

I mean, no offense to you, but any time that someone holds different beliefs than you do, you tend to jump on the idea that we're "cointelpro" or out to get people or to mislead them into communism or whatever. Like we're evil scumbags out to destroy the world... we either agree with you on every point, or we're Ren and Stimpy.

Same with JTCoyote. It seems to be a mod thing here.

I'm not being ugly with you, honest. I like and admire you, you've got a brilliant mind.

But this seems to be one area in which you just cannot seem to accept the idea that people might TRULY have different feelings and viewpoints from you, but still not be out to harm or hurt anyone.

I don't think he is CoIntelPro.  I think he is fascinated by Z/ZA and has trouble seeing the theosophical agenda pervasive throughout those flicks.  Sorry for not making this more clear.  And I have been wrong, am wrong, and will continue to be wrong often. I would hate for anyone to believe anything I say without researching it themselves first.  I mean if there is a logical argument about how the Venus Project is not an extension of the luciferian theosophical agenda, please post it.

BTW, for your enjoyment:

"You are correct.  I was wrong, thanks for the correction..." http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=76661.msg426007#msg426007

"Looking back at my statement: Sovereignty, individual liberty, sound money, and religion have no place in the future they are promoting. I was wrong..." http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=62764.msg326710#msg326710

"I was wrong!" http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=71665.msg386977#msg386977

"UPDATE: I was wrong" http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=16500.msg62914#msg62914

"looks like i was wrong, sorry" http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=28917.msg117144#msg117144

"I read back your old stuff and you were right and I was wrong." http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=81493.msg464388#msg464388

"you are right I was wrong" http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=17832.msg65666#msg65666

"I was wrong and he was right" http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=29272.msg117861#msg117861

From the movie Shooter: "Just when you think you got it all figured out--YOU'RE WRONG!"

But anyway, here is a bit of fun concerning the forum nazi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bdlFYrHoGs
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« Reply #2106 on: January 30, 2009, 08:19:12 AM »

I'm not trying to change your mind, Sane. It's obvious THAT's made up. However, lumping the Z movement with any religion, luciferian or otherwise, is doing it a great injustice. Whenever you hear the interviews PJ gives, he purposely strays away from religious sentiment completely; or, in other words, superstitious terms and ideas.

But let's assume you're correct, just for the sake of argument. It's all the devil. What if Christianity is actually the evil one. I don't believe it is, or isn't, but let's just run with this for a moment.

The Native American people worshipped the sun, the Earth, etc. This is just one example. All of a sudden, the white man came here and FORCED their Christianity on these people. Now wouldn't that be considered evil? Wouldn't that mean that Christianity is only the most popular religious belief because they have a better marketing team? That they are more driven in their ideals for world domination?

I think you could argue any point until you were blue in the face. You could post web pages and links arguing how Christ was actually Satan and vice versa. I bet I could also find pages where they link Hitler to a reincarnation of Jesus.

The point is, lumping Blavatsky, or ANY religious movement to the Z movement is akin to linking Hitler to Jesus because they both rallied a bunch of poeple to one idea or view point. No, it's like lumping God to Santa Clause because they both know when you've been naughty or nice.

They have the same ideas but only to an extent. The Z movement moves from religion to science.

Without scarcity, we wouldn't have an elite. What would they control? People are naturally either leaders or followers? Is that your argument? But put into a certain situation, can't we all lead? The strength is in all of us. It's just that we've been beaten down so much in this system that we see little hope in even considering another, a different, way of doing things.

Half a millenium ago we were ruled by Kings and Queens. They fed Christians to lions. A hundred thousand years ago our technology consisted of spear heads and fire. Things have advanced drastically. And they will continue to. Techology is going to advance, that much is clear. But without scarcity, we won't need an elite and there won't be an elite because there will be nothing for them to horde.

This is the main idea. It's not to put the mark of the beast on people's foreheads. It's not to make everyone make a pact with the devil. Jesus, where did this idea come from? Oh, right, Blavatsky. The Lucis Trust, which is a member of the UN, which is waiting on the Matreya to return. That's not the Z movement. They have nothing to do with each other except one calls for a move from religion to science (Zeitgeist) and the other calls for a move from one or many religions to one world religion plus science (Theosophy).

Yes, I have studied Theosophy. I have read books that call for all religions to be melded into one world religion with a figure head at the top. That's not Zeitgeist. There are those who lump the two and there are many websites dedicated to just this fact; YouTube videos too! But just because someone put a lot of work into finding associations with only a kernel of evidence doesn't make it fact.

The moment you can find on the Zeitgeist site anything about a one world religion, I will shut up and accept defeat in my argument.

If you can find anywhere on the Zeitgeist site about humans becoming cyborgs, I will shut up.

If you can find anywhere on the Zeitgeist sites, or any of their sister sites, about how they're working with ZB, Rockafeller, Kissinger, or any of their ilk, I will accept that you are correct.

The Zeitgeist movement is a beautiful idea, and it brings people together. I love this board and the Alex Jones sites because they expose the elite and their propaganda. It exposes what they're doing and the people here reveal through their own thoughts and ideas that their power is waning. That's awesome and I'm so glad to be apart of it. But I'm also glad to be a part of the Zeitgeist movement.

I reiterate. The two movements are not mutually exclusive. We are both against the elite and their strangle hold. You say the Earth is not ours. We may not own it but we live here and therefore should use the resources, in a clean and natural way, in order to sustain our lives. To say otherwise is going along with their Eugenics and Carbon tax BS.

Blavatsky, Pike, The Lucis Trust and Theosophy want something completely different. They want control. They want a caste system just like the Oligarchy we once knew. That's not good and that should be fought. That much I agree with you. But to deny that we deserve a better way, a freer way, a way where everyone can share everything equally, a way where the poor are no longer suffering, where they no longer have to be poor, where we are all equal...that's a movement we should all be behind; no matter how crazy or fantastic it sounds.



I guess the issue is not which religion is better, but that the freedom of religion and local power (sovereign states), disparate cultures should be protected.  I think you are confusing the idea that one religion needs to be the best rather than the freedom of religion should be protected.  If you pray to Madam Blatavsky, no problem, but at least admit that it is the influence behind this theosophical nonsense of a scientific technocracy.  It is all about central control and the elimination of free will, human nature.  I believe that this should be discussed.
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« Reply #2107 on: January 30, 2009, 08:27:40 AM »

Automated Opposition: The Technocratic Undercurrent of Zeitgeist: Addendum
HG Wells, Theosophist and lover of Margaret Sanger.

Manufacturing Dissent
 In his 1940 book The New World Order, H.G. Wells wrote:

... when the struggle seems to be drifting definitely towards a world social democracy, there may still be very great delays and disappointments before it becomes an efficient and beneficent world system. Countless people ... will hate the new world order ... and will die protesting against it. When we attempt to evaluate its promise, we [must] bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of malcontents, many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people. (The New World Order)

Wells' prognostication was, without a doubt, correct. As the global government envisioned by the supranational elite is gradually instantiated, many voices of dissent will be raised and subsequently eradicated. Yet, not every dissenter may "die protesting against it," but will die unwittingly embracing it instead. Some dissenters may, in fact, naively accept another form of global government being proffered as a viable alternative.

Such is the case with Zeitgeist: Addendum, the 2008 sequel to the pseudo-documentary entitled Zeitgeist, the Movie. The film was produced by Peter Joseph, a proponent of the inherently technocratic Venus Project. While the film presents a few valid critiques concerning the world monetary system, the military industrial complex, and America's meddlesome foreign policy, it uses these political and social ills as a pretext for the presentation of counterfeit solutions. The movie's prescriptions are posed within a distinctly Hegelian framework. In many instances, the solutions proffered by Zeitgeist: Addendum merely constitute dialectic extremes that produce precisely the same results as the problems that they allegedly address.

Moreover, Zeitgeist: Addendum either intentionally or unwittingly fails to recognize the problems for what they are: contrived grievances employed as polar extremes to perpetuate a dialectical climate. Instead, Zeitgeist: Addendum portrays the problems as the natural outgrowths of America's constitutional republican system, thereby vilifying representative democracy and enshrining the technocratic paradigm. The film's ultimate solution is little more than a Hegelian synthesis, as is evidenced by the dialectical commonalities between the Venus Project and the globalist forces that it purportedly opposes.

The dialectical ploy of Zeitgeist: Addendum becomes painfully apparent when one examines the normative social and political theories presented in the film. A consistently reiterated theme throughout Zeitgeist: Addendum is the notion that social progress is inextricably linked to scientific and technological progress. Such a contention is vintage techno-Utopianism, the belief that technology will eventually end all social evils and give rise to a perfect society ("Techno-Utopianism," Wikipeida: The Free Encyclopedia). Techno-Utopianism was an outgrowth of the Enlightenment, a reality underscored by one of its theoretical progenitors: Henri de Saint-Simon (ibid). In turn, the Enlightenment was an outgrowth of older occult religions. Every form of scientific totalitarianism that would emerge in the 20th century was inspired by the revolutionary faith that percolated beneath the surface of the Enlightenment. This revolutionary faith would witness tangible enactment during the bloody French Revolution. Given this disturbing ideational continuum, the core normative contention of Zeitgeist: Addendum comes into painful focus.

Zeitgeist: Addendum presents a false alternative to the emergent world order. While the film ostensibly decries globalism, it proffers a form of supranational government that is no less anti-democratic in character. Simultaneously, Zeitgeist: Addendum attempts to supply a corresponding new world religion, an agenda made fairly transparent by the film's advancement of thinly veiled occult concepts and flimsy critique of the historicity of Jesus Christ. At the end of the day, Zeitgeist: Addendum is nothing more than the hopelessly misguided artistic statement of a naive filmmaker who has adopted another variant of the ruling elite's Weltanschauung.

To understand the societal model being promoted by Zeitgeist: Addendum, one must examine the development of the revolutionary faith that inspired all modern sociopolitical Utopian movements. The film's techno-Utopian premises are derivative of this faith and, as such, can only promise the same results. Just as Zeitgeist: Addendum's political doctrine is inextricably linked to a corresponding neo-pagan spirituality, so was the revolutionary faith inextricably linked to ancient occult religions.

From Religion to Revolution: The Occult Origins of Sociopolitical Utopianism
One cannot help but notice the virulent derision for traditional religions, namely Christianity, that is espoused throughout the course of Zeitgeist: Addendum. The film echoes the same tired anti-Christian rhetoric of Karl Marx augmented by the historically bankrupt Christ-myth conspiracy theory of Achayra S (which merely recycles the thoroughly refuted thesis of Kersey Graves' The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors). Simultaneously, the movie presents a hodgepodge of Theosophical, Gnostic, astrotheological, and New Age ideas as a viable new world religion. Such an occult counterculture model is similar to the early anti-theistic sociopolitical Utopian movements that were spawned by the Enlightenment.

It is with Gnosticism that one finds the proximate origins of sociopolitical Utopianism. The Gnostic trappings of early sociopolitical Utopian movements are demonstrable in the various ideas promoted by Enlightenment luminaries. One case in point is Condorcet's "doctrine of a coming Utopia, where indefinite progress would bring forth a 'natural salvation' of plenty and immortality" (Goeringer, "The Enlightenment, Freemasonry, and the Illuminati"). Condorcet's doctrine of "natural salvation" merely reiterated the Gnostic doctrine of self-salvation.

Another case in point is Enlightenment luminary Voltaire. Linda de Hoyos elaborates on the Gnostic elements of Voltaire's Weltanschaaung:

...Voltaire's own anti-Christian beliefs are exposed in his 1756 short piece, Plato's Dream, where he embraces the ancient gnostic doctrine of the universe. In this exercise, Voltaire not only peddles the complete separation of the material and spiritual world, but upholds the gnostic doctrine that all material reality is inherently evil. The corollary to this doctrine, of course, is that man is thereby excused from all compunctions to be moral, since he is a helpless victim trapped in an evil universe not of his own making. This doctrine was likely the source of Voltaire's world view since as early as 1711, when he was introduced into the Temple of Taste, a secret society of debauchees who then forwarded him to England for further indoctrination in buggery. ("The Enlightenment's Crusade Against Reason")

The Enlightenment also shared Gnosticism's veneration of God's chief opponent. In The Hypostasis of the Archons, an Egyptian Gnostic text, the serpent in Eden is portrayed as humanity's benevolent "Instructor" and "incognito savior" (Raschke 27). Of course, Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 identifies the serpent as Satan, the Adversary of both God and man. Meanwhile, the Hypostasis caricatures Jehovah as "the archon of arrogance" (27). Likewise, the Enlightenment depicted the Devil as man's liberator and God as the oppressive force of superstition. However, the sociopolitical Utopians of the Enlightenment would exalt Satan under his original appellation, Lucifer. Conrad Goeringer elaborates:

If the bible was the holy book of the Christian enlightenment, then the Encyclopedia was the inspiration of the Enlightenment. Here was a compendium of human knowledge dealing with arts, sciences mechanics and philosophy which swelled to some 36 volumes by 1780. Begun by the Atheist Diderot in 1751, the Encyclopedia bore the imprints of Voltaire, Montesque, Rousseau, Buffon, Turgot and others. Gracing the title page of Diderot's compendium in the first edition was a drawing of Lucifer, symbol of light and rebellion, standing beside the masonic symbols of square and compass. ("The Enlightenment, Freemasonry, and the Illuminati")

This veneration of the Devil under his original angelic title constituted the religion of Luciferianism. Like some varieties of Satanism, Luciferianism did not depict the devil as a literal metaphysical entity. Lucifer only symbolized the cognitive powers of man. He was the embodiment of science and reason. It was the Luciferian's religious conviction that these two facilitative forces would dethrone the "superstitious" institutions of God and apotheosize man. This re-conceptualization of Lucifer reiterated the theme of Gnostic immanentization. Lucifer, whom traditional Christianity regards as a spiritual entity, was rendered purely immanent. Now, Lucifer was ontologically transplanted within the human mind, which Enlightenment adherents believed to be a purely corporeal entity.

Diderot's inclusion of Masonic symbols on the title page of Encyclopedia was quite appropriate. Luciferian thought permeated the early Masonic Lodge. In Morals and Dogma, 33rd Degree Freemason Albert Pike expresses unabashed praise for Lucifer:

LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not. (321)

Freemasonry, which enjoyed a certain degree of prominence during the Enlightenment, would play a significant role in disseminating Luciferianism on the popular level as secular humanism. Basically, secular humanism qualifies as an anthropocentric religion and its central precept is synopsized by the Protagorean dictum: "Man is the measure of all things." Whittaker Chambers, former member of the communist underground in America, provides an eloquent summation of secular humanism:

"Humanism is not new. It is, in fact, man's second oldest faith. Its promise was whispered in the first days of Creation under the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil: 'Ye shall be as gods.'" (Qutd. in Baker 206)

Indeed, the only logical conclusion that a secular humanist can arrive at is that man is becoming god. It is interesting to note that Diderot, who was ostensibly an atheist, would select religious personages such as Lucifer to adorn his "compendium of human knowledge." Diderot's appropriation of the "symbol of light and rebellion" as a core icon for the title page of Encyclopedia suggests a conception of human knowledge that parallels the fallen angel's hubristic belief that he would make himself "like the Most High" (Isaiah 14:14). Atheism provides the philosophical segue for the enthronement of man as the Most High. This enthronement begins with the recognition of a logical contradiction inherent to atheism. Christian apologist Ravi Zacharias delineates the logical contradiction of atheism:

[Atheism] is not saying, "I do not think there is a God." It is not even saying, "I do not believe there is a God." It is affirming the nonexistence of God. It affirms a negative. It affirms the nonexistence of God... anyone with an introductory course in philosophy recognizes that it is a logical contradiction. How can you affirm a negative in the absolute? It would be like me saying to you, "There is no such thing as a white stone with black dots anywhere in all of the galaxies of this universe." The only way I can affirm that is if I have unlimited knowledge of this universe. So, to affirm an absolute negative is self-defeating because what you are saying is, "I have infinite knowledge in order to say to you, 'There is nobody with infinite knowledge.'" ("Why I am Not an Atheist, Part one," Let My People Think)

The only way to affirm the nonexistence of God is to lay claim to one of his core attributes: omniscience. Philosophically and conceptually, the claimant is already on a slippery slope towards to the belief in self-deification. Ron Carlson and Ed Decker reiterate:

It is philosophically impossible to be an atheist, since to be an atheist you must have infinite knowledge in order to know absolutely that there is no God. But to have infinite knowledge, you would have to be God yourself. It's hard to be God yourself and an atheist at the same time! (17)

Indeed, to conclude with all certainty that there is no transcendent God outside the ontological plane of the physical universe, one must first claim omniscience. However, omniscience is a trait reserved exclusively for deities. Therefore, the claimant must conclude that he or she is a god. In this sense, atheism is not the rejection of a deity. Atheism is but a philosophical segue for the ontological relocation of God within man himself. Herein is the occult conception of man as an emergent deity. Man becomes a self-actuating god who achieves apotheosis through a hierarchical system of biological and cognitive development. If such a belief in a system of progressive development sounds familiar, that's because it has been promoted under numerous appellations throughout the centuries. W. Warren Wagar elaborates:

Nineteenth-and early twentieth-century thought teems with time-bound emergent deities. Scores of thinkers preached some sort of faith in what is potential in time, in place of the traditional Christian and mystical faith in a power outside of time. Hegel's Weltgeist, Comte's Humanite, Spencer's organismic humanity inevitably improving itself by the laws of evolution, Nietzsche's doctrine of superhumanity, the conception of a finite God given currency by J.S. Mill, Hastings Rashdall, and William James, the vitalism of Bergson and Shaw, the emergent evolutionism of Samuel Alexander and Lloyd Morgan, the theories of divine immanence in the liberal movement in Protestant theology, and du Nouy's telefinalism--all are exhibits in evidence of the influence chiefly of evolutionary thinking, both before and after Darwin, in Western intellectual history. The faith of progress itself--especially the idea of progress as built into the evolutionary scheme of things-is in every way the psychological equivalent of religion. (106-07)

There is one invariant feature within this long ideational chain: a religious veneration for "progress" itself. In fact, the terms "evolution" and "progress" can be used interchangeably. Expanding on the religion of progress and its numerous permutations, Rama Coomaraswamy makes the following observation:

In point of fact, the idea of "progress," used in this sense, pre-dated Darwin by decades if not by centuries. One finds it used during the English Reformation where the "Recussants"--those who refused to abandon the Catholic faith--were described as "backward," while those who accepted the "established" state- enforced religion--were "progressive." The concept was further developed during the so-called "age of enlightenment" when people like Rousseau, Voltaire and Diderot dreamed of creating a perfect society without God. Kant embraced it in his "Idea of a Universal History on a Cosmopolitical Plan," a text in which he taught that history followed predetermined laws and revealed what be called "a regular stream or tendency" which demonstrated a "natural purpose" which would end in a "Universal civil society." Spencer spoke of the "law of progress" and defined evolution as "a change from an indefinite incoherent homogeneity to a definite coherent heterogeneity through continuous differentiations and integrations." He went on to teach that "the operation of evolution is absolutely universal. . .Whether it be in the development of the earth, in the development of life upon its surface, in the development of society, of government, of manufactures, of commerce, of language, of literature, science, art, this same advance from the simple to the complex, through successive differentiations, holds uniformly. . ." Hegel taught that humanity was driven ceaselessly upwards by an all-powerful, all-rational "It", and that the path of the ascent was an eternal, immutable, predestined, zigzag--his thesis and antithesis--always resulting in a higher synthesis. Evolutionary theory developed as a result of applying these ideas to biology. It provided a "scientific" basis for man's belief in progress and found ready acceptance in a world that sought to free itself from all divine sanction. From the time of Darwin, progress and evolution have become almost interchangeable terms that are mutually supportive and pervasive influences in our lives. ("The Fundamental Nature of the Conflict Between Modern and Traditional Man--Often Called the Conflict Between Science and Faith")

As Coomaraswamy observed in the above quote, the secular faith in process or evolution was accompanied by several corresponding societal visions. While these societal visions exhibited many variations, they all shared a common theme. The invariant was the belief that evolution operated on a macrocosmic level, enveloping all facets of existence. Julian Huxley elaborates:

"The concept of evolution was soon extended into other than biological fields. Inorganic subjects such as the life-history of stars and the formation of the chemical elements on the one hand, and on the other hand subjects like linguistics, social anthropology, and comparative law and religion, began to be studied from an evolutionary angle, until today we are enabled to see evolution as a universal and all-pervading process." (Qutd. in Newman 272)

Darwinism's most significant extrapolation was the extension of evolutionary principles from biology to political science. In the context of governance, the final outcome of evolution would be a politically and economically interdependent world. There have been several appellations assigned to such a global sociopolitical arrangement. As Coomaraswamy previously stated, Kant called this arrangement a "Universal civil society." H.G. Wells called it the "New Republic." Adolf Hitler called it the "Third Reich." Neoconservative ideologues have called it Pax Americana. Internationalists of the more Eurocentric ilk have called it Pax Europa. Most notably, George Herbert Walker Bush popularized the concept under the appellation of a "New World Order." These various monikers aside, every movement that has attempted to establish a system of political and economic interdependence has invariably enshrined the same form of governance: a global socialist totalitarian state. From their evolutionary perspective, such a world order would be the natural corollary of man's alleged political evolution. In this sense, the globalist, whether of the Transnationalist and Internationalist variety, qualifies as a "sociopolitical Darwinist":

From Pope John Paul's vantage point, the thing that seems to bind these two groups most closely in practical terms is that at heart, and philosophically speaking, both are sociopolitical Darwinists. Of course, the Pope doesn't for a moment imagine that such activists as these are likely to take time out from their total immersion in world affairs to formulate their basic group philosophy in the same way that the Humanists have. There is no Internationalist or Transnationalist equivalent of Professor Paul Kurtz's Humanist Manifesto II.

Still, in John Paul's assessment, both of these globalist groups operate on the same fundamental assumptions about the meaning of human society today. Both agree on the face of it that the most important single trait that pervades the life of all nations is interdependence. And both agree that interdependence is a progressive function of evolutionary progress. Evolutionary, as in Darwin.

In practical terms, both of these groups operate on the same working assumption Charles Darwin arbitrarily adopted to rationalize his feelings about mankind's physical origins and history. If it worked so well for Darwin, they almost seem to say, why not expand the idea of orderly progress through natural evolution to include such sociopolitical arrangements as corporations and nations? In this view, the most useful of Darwin's concepts is that of human existence as essentially a struggle in which the weakest perish, the fittest survive and the strongest flourish.

When applied to sociopolitical arrangements, this Darwinist process seems almost to dictate the Internationalist and Transnationalist one-world view of things. The continuing clash and contention in the world as it has been until now has resulted in a slow evolution of those who have survived from one stage of interdependent order to another. From time to time, natural "catastrophes" have intervened, forcing "nature" to take another path. But at each new stage, interdependence has become more important and more complex.

The greater the interdependence between groups, the higher the evolutionary stage, the more the balance achieved between interdependent groups results in the common good.

The view of the Internationalists and Transnationalists is that they are the ones who are equipped to bring mankind to the highest level of the sociopolitical evolution. Their effort is to bring together into one harmonious whole all those separate parts of our world that have not yet "evolved" into a natural cohesion for the common good. (314-15)

A global government is merely the political expression of the metaphysical monism that originated with Gnosticism and the ancient Mystery religions. The Enlightenment provided the conceptual and philosophical segue for the transposition of metaphysical monism into a sociopolitical context. Whether the globalist realizes it or not, their mandate to create "one world" merely reiterates the occult contention that "all is one." While many sociopolitical Utopians (e.g., Marxists, secular humanists, communists, fascists, etc.) relegate texts such as the Biblical Eden account to mere myth, an Edenic motif remains firmly embedded within their own Weltanschauung. In the beginning of this secular mythology, Eden was a singularity, which was eventually divided into countless pluralities by the Big Bang.

According to the myth, the reconstitution of Eden is achieved through evolution, which invariably requires the assistance of Man (spelled with a capital M to signify humanity's potential to achieve apotheosis through the evolutionary process). Man unites evolution with the science of "progress," which is bodied forth through biological methodologies (e.g., eugenics, population control, etc.) and social methodologies (e.g., communism, fascism, and other forms of sociopolitical Utopianism). As evolution is guided down the desired course, Man returns to the singularity (i.e., a world government and a unified consciousness). Thus, Eden is reborn. However, Eden is confined to this ontological plane and immortality is attainable only through the continuity of the species. If elements of this mythology sound familiar, it is because it is certainly nothing new. It is derivative of ancient occult cosmologies, particularly Gnosticism. The only difference is that the scientistic version stipulates an Eschaton residing entirely within this physical universe.

The extrapolation of occult concepts into revolutionary doctrine produced a new Gnosticism that envisaged the manifestation of the Eschaton within the immanent cosmos. Commenting on this new strain of Gnosticism, Wolfgang Smith writes:

In place of an Eschaton which ontologically transcends the confines of this world, the modern Gnostic envisions an End within history, an Eschaton, therefore, which is to be realized within the ontological plane of this visible universe. (238).

The Enlightenment would reach its violent nadir with the bloody French Revolution, which would provide the blueprint for all modern socialist revolutions. Communism, fascism, and other competing forms of socialism proffer a heaven on earth. In this sense, all modern socialist revolutionaries qualify as secular Gnostics:

In this century, with the presentation of traditional religious positions in secular form, there has emerged a secular Gnosticism beside the other great secular religions--the mystical union of Fascism, the apocalypse of Marxist dialectic, the Earthly City of social democracy. The secular Gnosticism is almost never recognized for what it is, and it can exist alongside other convictions almost unperceived. (Webb 418)

The codification of Gnosticism as revolutionary doctrine produced secular movements that, sociologically, behaved like religious movements. The religious character of these secular movements is made evident by the "new reality" that they sought to tangibly enact. James H. Billington describes this "new reality":

The new reality they sought was radically secular and stridently simple. The ideal was not the balanced complexity of the new American federation, but the occult simplicity of its great seal: an all-seeing eye atop a pyramid over the words Novus Ordo Seclorum. In search of primal, natural truths, revolutionaries looked back to pre-Christian antiquity--adopting pagan names like "Anaxagoras" Chaumette and "Anacharsis" Cloots, idealizing above all the semimythic Pythagoras as the model intellect-turned-revolutionary and the Pythagorean belief in prime numbers, geometric forms, and the higher harmonies of music. (6)

It is very interesting that such a "radically secular" reality would be so preoccupied with the "occult simplicity" and "pagan names" of "pre-Christian antiquity." Yet, as sociologist William Sims Bainbridge observes, such occult proclivities are the natural corollaries of secularism:

Secularization does not mean a decline in the need for religion, but only a loss of power by traditional denominations. Studies of the geography of religion show that where the churches become weak, cults and occultism explode to fill the spiritual vacuum. ("Religions for a Galactic Civilization")

Indeed, occultism did explode to fill the power vacuum once occupied by traditional ecclesiastical authorities. One of the occult personages that would remain as a fixture of the early revolutionary faith was Lucifer. However, he would assume yet another title. The term Lucifer, as translated by St. Jerome from the original Hebrew Helel ("bright one"), shares the same meaning as Prometheus who brought fire to humanity ("Lucifer," Answers.com). The mythical character of Prometheus was central to the Utopian vision of early socialist revolutionaries. James H. Billington explains:

A recurrent mythic theme for revolutionaries -- early romantics, the young Marx, the Russians of Lenin's time -- was Prometheus, who stole fire from the gods for the use of mankind. The Promethean faith of revolutionaries resembled in many respects the general belief that science would lead men out of darkness into light. (6; emphasis added)

The Promethean contention that science was the lantern guiding man to illumination was vintage scientism. Scientism, which should not be confused with legitimate science, is the belief that the investigational methods of science are essential to all other fields of study. The modern mind, chronocentric as it is, might view such epistemological imperialism as desirable. However, as a system of quantification, science can only concern itself with quantifiable entities. Such epistemological rigidity allows for the potential preclusion of important data. Michael Hoffman reiterates:

The reason that science is a bad master and dangerous servant and ought not to be worshipped is that science is not objective. Science is fundamentally about the uses of measurement. What does not fit the yardstick of the scientist is discarded. Scientific determinism has repeatedly excluded some data from its measurement and fudged other data, such as Piltdown Man, in order to support the self-fulfilling nature of its own agenda, be it Darwinism or "cut, burn and poison" methods of cancer "treatment." (49)

When applied to questions of governance, science invariably becomes an oppressor. Because they defy quantification, concepts like human dignity and liberty are precluded from a purely scientific interpretation of governance. In the absence of concepts like liberty and dignity, otherwise questionable policies can be scientifically dignified with no regard given to moral considerations. Such was the case with Nazi Germany, the perennial model of eugenical regimentation. It is ironic that scientism, which devalues human life, was at the core of the Promethean revolutionaries' anthropocentric faith. In the end, Promethean revolutionaries murdered countless members of the very species that they sought to apotheosize: man. Hoffman synopsizes the logical ends of scientism:

The doctrine of man playing god reaches its nadir in the philosophy of scientism which makes possible the complete mental, spiritual and physical enslavement of mankind through technologies such as satellite and computer surveillance; a state of affairs symbolized by the "All Seeing Eye" above the unfinished pyramid on the U.S. one dollar bill. (50)

Nevertheless, the scientistic approach to governance was a hallmark of the Promethean revolutionaries. Friedrich Engels described Marx's theory as "scientific socialism" because both science and Marxism bestowed epistemological primacy upon observable phenomenon ("Scientific socialism," Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia). Marx's emphasis upon radical empiricism was presaged by Henri Saint-Simon's physiological interpretation of the state, which extended the doctrine of sense certainty "into the altogether new field of social relations" (Billington 212). Adherents of Saint-Simon's philosophy contended that "the key to diagnosing and curing the ills of humanity lay in an objective understanding of the physiological realities that lay behind all thinking and feeling" (212). Following this physiological interpretation of governance to its logical ends, Saint-Simon developed the precursor to Marx's "scientific socialism":

Believing that the scientific method should be applied to the body of society as well as to the individual body, Saint-Simon proceeded to analyze society in terms of its physiological components: classes. He never conceived of economic classes in the Marxian sense, but his functional class analysis prepared the way for Marx. (213)

Thus, radical empiricism provides the epistemological basis for all modern forms of scientific totalitarianism. It is also with radical empiricism that one finds another occult element of sociopolitical Utopianism. This epistemology stems from the Gnostic derision of cognitio fidei (the cognition of faith). Moreover, radical empiricism arrives at conclusions that are inescapably mystical in character. An exclusively empirical approach relegates cause to the realm of metaphysical fantasy. This holds enormous ramifications for science. What is perceived as A causing B could be merely a consequence of circumstantial juxtaposition. Although temporal succession and spatial proximity are axiomatic, causal connection is not. Affirmation of causal relationships is impossible. Given the absence of causality, all of a scientist's findings must be taken upon faith. Ironically, science relies on the affirmation of such cause and effect relationships.

Saint-Simon's work has been described as the prescription for Sir Francis Bacon's prophetic vision of a technocratic society (Fischer 69). Technocratic governance, or Technocracy, is a governmental system where scientists and technicians act as the sole decision-making body. This inherently anti-democratic concept originated within esoteric circles. Sir Francis Bacon developed the original model for Technocracy in his book, The New Atlantis. Published in 1627, The New Atlantis was adorned with the symbols of occult Freemasonry and presented the Rosicrucian mandate for the formation of an "Invisible College" (Howard 74-75). Bacon himself was a member of the secret Order of the Helmet and, some allege, a Grand Master of the secret Rosicrucian Order (74). The Utopia presented by Bacon in The New Atlantis was "a pure Technocratic society" (Fischer 66-67). The philosopher kings of Plato's Republic were to be replaced by a "technical elite" (66-67). Scientists and technicians would circumvent conflicting political interests, giving rise to an apolitical bureaucracy.

Technocratic ideas constituted a portion of the conceptual and philosophical foundation for modern socialist totalitarian governance. Of course, a majority of socialist totalitarian regimes that have populated modernity have been overtly hostile towards theistic faiths, particularly Christianity. This derision for theistic faiths is attributable to the characteristic scientism of technocratic theory. Because the soul, angels, demons, and God Himself are neither quantifiably or empirically demonstrable entities, they have no place within a technocratic society. Science becomes the new expositor of miracles, revelation, and truth. In Brave New World Revisited, Aldous Huxley described this scientistic form of governance:

The older dictators fell because they could never supply their subjects with enough bread, enough circuses, enough miracles, and mysteries. Under a scientific dictatorship, education will really work with the result that most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution. There seems to be no good reason why a thoroughly scientific dictatorship should ever be overthrown. (116)

Wielding ostensible epistemic primacy, the "experts" of Technocracy employ the gnosis of science to produce "enough bread, enough circuses, enough miracles, and mysteries" for their subjects. Distracted by all of the comforts that technology can supply, most men and women would never dream of revolting against the new theocracy of science. This is precisely the same sort of society mandated by Zeitgeist: Addendum, a reality underscored by the film's promotion of the ideas of Jacque Fresco.

Jacque Fresco: Proselyte of the Global Technocratic State
The technocratic nature of Zeitgeist: Addendum's prescription is made evident by one of the ideologues interviewed in the film: Jacque Fresco. In hopes of realizing his techno-Utopian vision for the world, Fresco founded the Venus Project in 1975 ("The Venus Project," Living on Purpose). Zeitgeist: Addendum is essentially a commercial for Fresco's Venus Project.

Fresco appears throughout the movie, intermittently espousing ridiculously quixotic Utopian romanticist doctrines and reiterating the same tired anti-theist polemics that have already been refuted by many reputable Christian apologists. All of his pseudo-intellectual rhetoric aside, Fresco is nothing more than an anti-American technophile suffering from Promethean hubris. Unfortunately, the more credulous audiences that have adopted the technocratic gospel of Zeitgeist: Addendum cannot identify the dubious strands of thought that underpin many of Fresco's assertions. For instance, at one point, Fresco states:

"Now, America is inclined toward fascism. It has a propensity, by its dominant philosophy and religion, to uphold the fascist point of view. American industry is essentially a fascist institution. If you don't understand that, the minute you punch that time clock, you walk into a dictatorship." (Zeitgeist: Addendum)

Fresco is only partially correct. While there is little doubt that there are fascist elements entrenched in present-day America, these elements are extraneous. They did not originate with Americanism, but gradually co-opted the institution after its inception. Fresco is either intentionally or unwittingly confusing Americanism with corporatism. Americanism promotes free market capitalism. Corporatism, which is synonymous with fascism, promotes monopolistic capitalism. By wedding the government to private business interests, the corporatist state enables monopolistic capitalists to consolidate and control the means of production. Meanwhile, smaller businesses are expunged from the marketplace through rigid governmental regulation.

Thus, Fresco presents humanity's choices of government within a distinctly Hegelian framework. By positing that Americanism is inherently fascistic, Fresco is either intentionally or unwittingly encouraging audiences to gravitate closer towards the other dialectical extreme: communism. Yet, the dialectical commonalities of fascism and communism are overwhelmingly transparent, a reality that is demonstrable in the etymology of the two systems themselves. The appellation of "communism" comes from the Latin root communis, which means "group" living. Fascism is a derivation of the Italian word fascio, which is translated as "bundle" or "group." Both fascism and communism are forms of coercive group living, or more succinctly, collectivism.

The only substantial difference between these dialectical extremes is fascism's limited observance of private property rights, which is superficial at best given its susceptibility to rigid governmental regulation. In 1933, Hitler candidly admitted to Hermann Rauschning that "the whole of National Socialism is based on Marx" (Martin 239). Indeed, Nazism (a variant of fascism) is derivative of Marxism. Monopolistic capitalists like Rockefeller financed the rise of communism because they correctly identified it as the quintessential monopoly. In essence, communism is a system of monopolistic capitalism where the omnipotent State acts as an ersatz corporation. In practice, fascism was merely Marxism with the added pageantry of ostensible private ownership. The historical conflicts between communism and fascism were merely feuds between two socialist totalitarian camps, not two dichotomously related forces.

Nevertheless, by confusing Americanism with fascism, Fresco automatically ensnares more credulous audiences within a dialectical trap. Ayn Rand synopsizes this dialectical trap as follows:

It is obvious what the fraudulent issue of fascism versus communism accomplishes: it sets up, as opposites, two variants of the same political system... it switches the choice of "Freedom or dictatorship?" into "Which kind of dictatorship?"--thus establishing dictatorship as an inevitable fact and offering only a choice of rulers. The choice--according to the proponents of the fraud - is: a dictatorship of the rich (fascism) or a dictatorship of the poor (communism). (180)

Fresco's anti-capitalist rhetoric betrays his technocratic pedigree. Although Fresco rejects the appellation of "technocrat," he was a member of Technocracy Incorporated for many years ("Jacque Fresco," Wikipedia: The Free Encyclopedia). Fresco's technocratic propensities become all the more apparent when one examines his promotion of a "resource-based economy" (ibid). Such an economic model was also promoted by Harold Loeb, a technocrat who believed that unfettered technological progress would eventually end scarcity and supplant capitalism with a techno-Utopian system of governance. In Life in a Technocracy, Loeb states:

Men live by the production, distribution, and consumption of goods. Goods are produced and distributed by effort. The incentive of effort is profit. Profit depends on price. Price depends on scarcity. Therefore, the life of man under the capitalist system, depends on the scarcity of goods. And the scarcity of goods is being progressively destroyed by the application of science to production, known in its latest phase as technology. (7; emphasis added)

While some of Loeb's criticisms of scarcity-based economics are valid, his assumption that such an economic model was automatically synonymous with America's free market economy is incorrect. Nevertheless, technocrats like Loeb forthrightly condemned Americanism. In fact, many sects of the early technocratic movement were "anticapitalistic and revolutionary in their rhetoric" (Akin 82). Some technocrats even "mingled socialism, managerialism, and assorted beliefs" (83). William Akin further reveals the Marxian proclivities of the early technocratic movement:

In California, adherents visualized an efficient totalitarian society in which "the individual must subordinate himself to the community" and which would function automatically under the guidance of engineers. The American Technocratic League of Denver was openly socialist. From Chicago the All American Technological Society proposed the use of the Soviet Union as a model for the new order. (83)

Such technocratic enclaves provide a fragmentary glimpse of Fresco's true ideological heritage. Like Loeb, Fresco believes that technology will eventually end scarcity, thereby relegating capitalism to obsolescence. Throughout the course of Zeitgeist: Addendum, Fresco consistently characterizes profit as the natural correlative of greed. Apart from the fact that such an association is a hastily formulated oversimplification, Fresco's virulent derision of profit takes on a technocratic dimension when examined in conjunction with his conviction that technology will end scarcity and capitalism with it.

While Fresco claims that he does not advocate communism, he speaks about the system with a great deal of affinity. During an interview on Living on Purpose, Fresco reminisces fondly about the various flirtations with communism that took place during the Great Depression:

During the Depression, everybody was looking for new ways. That's amazing. Communism, socialism were up on soapboxes. The Secretary of State of the United States went to Russia to see what they were doing and he liked what they were doing. So, they made a film called Mission to Moscow... It ran in this country. Very successful. Favorable to communism. Of course, all of that was taken away. It's gone now. You can't even see it anywhere. And, I don't say that it's good or bad, but that was good. It was more of an open system. ("The Venus Project," Living on Purpose)

Fresco's one major criticism of communism and socialism seems to be the fact that these systems, like all other world systems, employ a monetary-based economy ("What is The Venus Project"). Like Loeb, Fresco contends that monetary systems invariably lead to scarcity (ibid). Fresco contends that, in turn, scarcity is the crucible of all social evils, including "social stratification, elitism, nationalism, and racism" (ibid). Thus, it would appear that Fresco's only major misgivings with communism and socialism are those systems' reliance upon monetary-based economic models.

The solution, according to Fresco, is the instantiation of a cashless society:

"Today we have access to highly advanced technologies. But our social and economic system has not kept up with our technological capabilities that could easily create a world of abundance, free of servitude and debt. This could be accomplished with the infusion of a global, resource-based civilization where all goods and services are available without the use of money, credit, barter or any other form of debt or servitude." (Qutd. in Noni Durrani. "Jacque Fresco On The Future")

Yet, such a non-monetary system was a hallmark of the stateless socialism envisioned by some variants of Marxism. Arguably, money was virtually nonexistent in some Marxist regimes, such as Cambodia under the genocidal Khmer Rouge. In Maoist China and the Soviet Union, money played an ancillary role at best. Within these regimes, neither productive resources nor a share of production itself could be acquired through the issuance of liabilities. Thus, communist and socialist economies could be considered mere segues for the instantiation of non-monetary systems.

Ominously enough, a cashless society has also been the objective of some of the globalist interests that financed the rise of communism. Why? In a cashless society, there is a distinct lack of financial privacy. In the absence of that privacy, the state can arbitrarily confiscate the wealth of the lower and middle classes. Fresco believes that such universal financial transparency would obliterate elitism and social stratification. Yet, historically, the ruling elite have always found ways to conceal their financial information, even in the most economically regimented societies.

In the United States, for instance, the wealthy have been able to conceal their financial information through offshore banking schemes, shell games, and loopholes governing cash transaction reports. As a result, untold billions of dollars connected to the international drug trade and terrorism have passed through the hands of elites. In a cashless society, whatever is deemed credit can and most likely will be regulated in a similar fashion. A cashless system would precede the growth of a huge black market and guerilla economy as criminal infrastructures develop new and creative ways to circumvent financial transparency. Historically, the global oligarchical establishment has maintained close ties to the criminal underworld. This reality reduces the notion of financial equality to a pipe dream of the first order.

Moreover, Fresco's contention that all social evils are inextricably linked to monetary-based economies is inherently fallacious. How does Fresco account for all the instances of "social stratification, elitism, nationalism, and racism" that preceded the advent of any monetary-based economies? Evidently, the inherent nature of man is plagued by a systemic corruption that existed before money. Ironically, his reality is affirmed by Biblical Christianity, a Weltanschauung that Fresco categorically rejects. In 1 Timothy 6:10, the apostle Paul makes it clear that it is the "love of money," not money itself, that is the root of all evils. In the absence of money, man will simply find something else to worship. In the case of Fresco, he has chosen to worship the cognitive powers of man. Fresco venerates science and technology, which are the products of human intellect. For Fresco, science and technology are the instruments by which man shall reconstitute Eden without God. Such a contention merely reiterates the mantra of an older anthropocentric religion: "Ye shall be as gods." Herein is the true motive for Fresco's anti-theist rhetoric.

Revisiting Walden Two: Fresco's Behavioral Tyranny
Fresco's contention that monetary-based economies are the source of all social evils pays credence to the behaviorist theory that man is a tabula rasa who is determined exclusively by external forces. In turn, behaviorism is premised on the physicalist philosophy of mind. Physicalism holds that outward behavior is the only adequate indicator of mental states. From the physicalist vantage point, cognition is a purely corporeal process and the soul is a metaphysical fantasy. Working from this premise, Skinner developed a "technology of behavior" by which human nature could be conditioned and manipulated. Skinner believed that, as desirable behaviors were promulgated within the human herd, the ideal society would eventually emerge.

Skinner presented his psychologically engineered Utopia as a roman a' clef entitled Walden Two. Characterizing Walden Two as an innocuous fiction, Skinner stated: "The 'behavioral engineering' I had so frequently mentioned in the book was, at the time, little more than science fiction" (vi). Yet, behavioral engineering was no fiction for one of Skinner's theoretical forerunners: Adam Weishaupt.

Weishaupt was an Enlightenment thinker and the founder of the infamous Bavarian Illuminati. Working off the physicalist contention that observable behavior was the primary indicator of mental states, Weishaupt developed a method of hierarchical observation called "Seelenspionage," which means "spying on the soul." Seelenspionage involved the close observation of Illuminist adepts. Through such observation, Weishaupt believed that the Illuminist hierarchy could:

. . .get access to the adept's soul by close analysis of the seemingly random gestures, expressions, or words that betrayed the adept's true feelings. Von Knigge, who was privy to the system, referred to it as a "Semiotik der Seele." "From the comparisons of all these characteristics," von Knigge wrote, "even those which seem the smallest and least significant, one draw conclusions which have enormous significance for knowledge of human beings, and gradually draw out of that reliable semiotics of the soul. (Jones 14)

Astute readers will recognize Weishaupt's Seelenspionage as a precursor to B.F. Skinner's behaviorism. Like Weishaupt's system of behavioral observation and modification, Skinner's behaviorism was premised upon the physicalist assumption that all observable behavior provided the only adequate indicator of "mental states." In fact, Skinner's reductionistic metaphysics virtually obliterated the "mental state," transforming it into a proverbial mirage imposed upon observable behavior by the percipient. Thus, from Skinner's perspective, man was merely an amalgam of behavioral repertoires that could be manipulated and controlled.

To his credit, Weishaupt identified the semiotic dimension to observable behavior, a reality that later physicalists like Skinner would ignore. However, the very same sort of reductionistic metaphysics to which Skinner and later physicalists would subscribe also plagued Weishaupt's "semiotics of the soul." Weishaupt attempted to reduce the extremely complex undercurrent of connotative meaning underpinning observable behavior to a simplistic paint-by-numbers schematic. Such a one-dimensional approach is reminiscent of Delsartes' method of acting, which contended that truly great performers could mimic all the proper gestures to communicate the emotional state of their characters.

Yet, in spite of its crude and overly simplistic schematicism, this Illuminist variety of behavioral tyranny would find a permanent place in the litany of contemporary totalitarian practices:

In Illuminism we find in seminal form the system of police state spying on its citizens, the essence of psychoanalysis, the rationale for psychological testing, the therapy of journal keeping, the idea of Kinsey's sex histories, the spontaneous confessions at Communist show trials, Gramsci's march through the institutions, the manipulation of the sexual passion as a form of control that was the basis for advertising, and, via Comte, the rise of the "science" of behaviorism, which attempts, in the words of John B. Watson, to "predict and control behavior." (17)

It comes as little surprise that Skinner believed that the system of communism practiced in Red China presented a societal model that America should emulate (Skinner xv). The Illuminist system of "social control" would provide the operational protocol for every totalitarian regime throughout the 20th century. Communism, fascism, and other forms of oligarchical governance have employed some variation of Weishaupt's panopticism (Jones 17). Ultimately, the goal has always been what Weishaupt called the Maschinenmenschen, a completely mechanized man:

Once released into the intellectual ether, the vision of machine people in a machine state controlled by Jesuit-like scientist controllers would capture the imagination of generations to come, either as utopia in the thinking of people like Auguste Comte or dystopia in the minds of people like Aldous Huxley and Fritz Lang, whose film Metropolis seemed to be Weishaupt's vision come to life. (Jones 16-17)

The Weishauptian concept of Maschinenmenschen that presaged Skinner's behaviorist portrait of humanity was also embraced by the technocratic movement:

The technocrats attempted to pull all of these strands--their faith in positivistic science; their mechanistic view of man with his essentially animal-like irrationality, his desire for security, abundance, and tranquility; the organizational imperative caused by natural inequality; and the dominance of technology-- together into one functional ideal whole. It resembled Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and the managerial society that James Burnham deplored; it could equally lead to B.F. Skinner's Walden Two. (Akin 148)

Fresco also exhibits such technocratic propensities, as is evidenced by the behaviorist-physicalist portrait of man presented at the Venus Project's official website. The Venus Project's organizational biography states: "Experience tells us that human behavior can be modified, either toward constructive or destructive activity" ("What is The Venus Project?"). This contention is reiterated later in the Venus Project's manifesto:

Human behavior is subject to the same laws as any other natural phenomenon. Our customs, behaviors, and values are byproducts of our culture. No one is born with greed, prejudice, bigotry, patriotism and hatred; these are all learned behavior patterns. If the environment is unaltered, similar behavior will reoccur. ("What is the Venus Project?")

Such a contention presupposes that man is a tabula rasa awaiting the enlightened brushstrokes of social engineers. After all, if man is determined exclusively by external forces, it stands to reason that his circumstances and conditions must be managed in order to produce the desirable modes of behavior. Whether Fresco realizes it or not, he is providing the rationale for the very "machine state" envisioned by Lang, Huxley, Weishaupt, Comte, and, of course, Skinner. Of such a psychologically engineered society, C.S. Lewis writes:

. . .many a mild-eyed scientist in a democratic laboratory means, in the last resort, just what the Fascist means. He believes that "good" means whatever men are conditioned to approve. He believes that it is the function of him and his kind to condition men; to create consciences by eugenics, psychological manipulation of infants, state education and mass propaganda. Because he is confused, he does not yet fully realize that those who create conscience cannot be subject to conscience themselves. But he must awake to the logic of his position sooner or later; and when he does, what barrier remains between us and the final division of the race into a few conditioners who stand themselves outside morality and the many conditioned in whom such morality as the experts choose is produced at the experts' pleasure? If "good" means only the local ideology, how can those who invent the local ideology be guided by any idea of good themselves? (81)

Indeed, when they speak of a psychologically engineered society, the "mild-eyed scientist" and the fascist mean exactly the same thing. They mean a socialist totalitarian society where the "many conditioned" are controlled by the "few conditioners." In short, they mean a scientific dictatorship. Such is the logical outworking of Fresco's behaviorist contentions. There can be little doubt that such such thinking is a corollary of Fresco's ideological heritage as a former member of Technocracy Incorporated. Evidently, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree.

Mandating a Sedentary World
Throughout the course of Zeitgeist: Addendum, Fresco childishly decries work and labor as corrupting forces that are stultifying man's alleged evolutionary ascent. Such a contention betrays Fresco's infantile resentment of productivity. To be sure, not all employers are fair and not all work is legitimate. However, it is a transparent generalization to assert that all work and labor constitute drudgery and servitude. Nevertheless, Zeitgeist: Addendum reiterates this assertion ad nauseam. At one point in the film, Joseph declares:

In a high technology, resource-based economy, it is conservative to say that about 90 percent of all current occupations could be phased out by machines, freeing humans to live their lives without servitude. (Zeitgeist: Addendum)

Again, the technocratic theme of a "machine state" emerges. Apart from being hopelessly quixotic, this statement bespeaks Joseph's contention that industrialism is the dominant force in the development of social order. Such a contention merely reiterates the outlook of Saint-Simon, who would indoctrinate Comte into technocratic doctrines:

It was from Saint-Simon that Comte got the idea that Industrialism was to be the new form of social order that would replace the old order which had been swept irrevocably away by the revolution. The new order was to be based on science, not the discredited religion, because no one could argue with science, which [Mary] Shelley has said, was based on fact, not hypothesis. "Hypothesi non fingo," Newton had written, and Shelley had quoted the passage in a footnote to Queen Mab as the marching orders for the New Man who would bring about heaven on earth. (Jones 94)

Such religious veneration of industrialism, technology, and science was at the heart of most sociopolitical Utopian movements. In turn, sociopolitical Utopianism represents the philosophical, ideological, and religious nucleus of all modern socialist totalitarian regimes. Historian Richard J. Sutcliffe states:

In the last hundred years or so, "scientific" views of history have become increasingly popular, for humanity as a statistical whole is thought of as being subject to analysis and prediction. In this thinking, once the motivations of the masses could be measured and tabulated, their response to economic or technological stimuli could be accurately predicted. Appropriate technology and education could then be adapted to engineer and control the desired society. Such theories are popular among both political rightists and leftists, neither of whom realize that they are advocating the same kind of society--a sort of "scientific totalitarianism" or "technocratic dictatorship." (The Fourth Civilization: Society, Technology, and Ethics)

The promotion of the scientistic approach to governance aside, the vision of a world where work is abolished through automation is fallacious. The introduction of machines in the workplace does not obliterate jobs, but simply creates new ones. After all, who will maintain the machines?

Yet, assuming that the vision of a completely automated workplace is plausible, it is questionable as to whether or not such a world would be desirable. Both Joseph and Fresco contend that automation will "free" man, but that merely raises another question. If man is freed from all work, then what is he free to do? Fresco and Joseph never clearly answer this question. All that they offer is nebulous rhetoric about humanity being free to pursue fuzzy enterprises of self-actualization and self-enrichment.

This response only gives rise to even more questions. Towards what ends would such pursuits be directed? Even if people were free to do nothing else but seek knowledge, the acquisition of that knowledge would prove to be absolutely worthless. Why? The practical application of knowledge is tangibly expressed through work, which will have been supposedly abolished through automation. In the end, the world envisioned by Fresco and Joseph would be a sedentary one. No doubt, a sedentary population would prove to be more tractable and manageable for the ruling elite. Again, the "solutions" presented in Zeitgeist: Addendum would merely expedite humanity's subjugation.

The Venus Project: An Experiment in World Technocratic Governance
At one point in Zeitgeist: Addendum, Fresco declares: "Patriotism, weapons, armies, navies... all of those are a sign that we are not civilized yet" (Zeitgeist: Addendum). Fresco's condemnation of patriotism and his intentional juxtaposition of the concept with instruments of war echoes Wells' contention in his work of normative fiction, The Shape of Things to Come: "The existence of independent sovereign states IS war, white or red, and only an elaborate mis-education blinded the world to this elementary fact" (The Shape of Things to Come).

To remedy the problems that he believes are rooted in the nation-state system, Fresco adopts the same solution presented by Wells:

"If you say large nations took land from smaller nations, used force of violence, you'll get history talked about as corrupt behavior all the way along until the beginning of the civilized world. That's when all the nations work together. World unification. Working toward common good for all human beings. And, without anyone being subservient to anyone else... without social stratification, whether it be technical elitism or any other kind of elitism..." (Zeitgeist: Addendum)

It is ironic that Fresco would present global government as an alternative to "technical elitism or any other kind of elitism." A technical elite would be the natural correlative of a global machine state. If Fresco's behaviorist conception of man is true, it stands to reason that the instantiation of a unified world would stipulate the primacy of those with behavioral "expertise." Fresco's emphasis on external forces as the dominant sculptors of human behavior provides the rationale for the necessity of a class of conditioners that would be unaccountable to the masses. Moreover, any form of global government is conceptually, politically, and economically predisposed to tyranny. Donald McAlvany explains:

A world government, by its highly centralized nature, would be socialistic; would be accompanied by redistribution of wealth; strict regimentation; and would incorporate severe limitations on freedom of movement, freedom of worship, private property rights, free speech, the right to publish, and other basic freedoms. (287)

Again, it becomes painfully apparent that the "solutions" proffered by Joseph and Fresco are not solutions at all. The Venus Project would merely install another form of scientific dictatorship. At one point in Zeitgeist: Addendum, two hands come into frame and connect to form a pyramid. In the center of the hands' pyramidal configurations is the sun. The image bears an iconic similarity to the All Seeing Eye astride the truncated pyramid. Of course, this symbol held esoteric significance for many s
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« Reply #2108 on: January 30, 2009, 08:32:05 AM »

I don't pray to Blavatsky or any other being or deity for that matter. But that's not the issue.

As far as a technocracy...that's coming. Whether we like it or not. Think about how much technology has advanced in a very short period of time. Now think of the technology that will be prevalent in a thousands years from now. It's unfathomable. The question is what are we going to do with that?

The Venus Project claims that they're not perfect. They even admit they're not the end all. They don't claim that there's is the only way. That's the main difference between them and this Luciferian cult you speak of. They only claim to have a better way. ONE Way of doing things that will free all beings.

Someone above me said something to the effect of whether I think that Bush and his cronies would live side by side with me in harmony. Of course not, not in this system at least. They will always have more because of who they are and who they associate with; as well as where they come from. However, if we had free energy and abundance, they would have no choice but to fall in line with the rest and they would have no power because there would be nothing to have power over. That's the innate message.

If that message is evil, or if it has evil connotations, then what is evil? To me, that's a better message than any religion has posed so far; Christian or otherwise.

Scarcity is the issue. Without scarcity, we wouldn't have enemies because there's be nothing to covet. Without scarcity, we wouldn't have crime. Without scarcity, we wouldn't have competition.

Free will and human nature are relative. If the system was differerent, wouldn't these concepts differ as well?

I don't claim to have all the answers. Don't misunderstand me. I don't claim that this idea is infallible. Of course it's not. There are many things that will hinder its progress or stop it altogether. However, to throw it out because it's got some similarities to a religious movement I think is doing it a great injustice.

Take Copernicus for example. He presented the idea that the Earth was not the center of the universe. If he were alive today, how would he present that message? Would he put it in a science journal? Maybe he'd make a documentary. People called him evil. They called him names and basically trashed his image to try and discredit him; especially the religious leaders. Now it's a commonly held world view, a paradigm, held by the entire free thinking world. What a travesty it would have been had he been silenced all these years. Where would we be scientifically and spiritually as a species?

Freedom of religion is GREAT! Sovereignty is FANTASTIC! But until we lose this idea that some are better than others, we will NEVER advance as a species; spiritual or otherwise. This is the main message of Z and ZA, and even the Venus Project.

I'm exhausted. Am I the only one who sees that this is not an evil movement? Jeez. Even Phoenix kind of sees my view. The world MUST be coming to an end Grin
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« Reply #2109 on: January 30, 2009, 08:41:26 AM »

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we will NEVER advance as a species; spiritual or otherwise. This is the main message of Z and ZA, and even the Venus Project.

Advance to what?

We have been controlled by an elite group of genocidal maniacs who have been forcing us into greater control technology grids.  How is this not just another extention of that?
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« Reply #2110 on: January 30, 2009, 08:47:37 AM »

I know what you mean. And I see why you're so skeptical and afraid of what will happen. But technology will increase EXPONENTIALLY! The technology of today, as advanced as we see it, is going to be very primitive to humans a thousand years from now. That's what I mean by advancing. But it's not just technology. Our understanding of who and what we are will also advance. Our spirituality will advance.

The reason the elite are in control of that is because of the system that we now employ. How do we get rid of that system? I DON"T KNOW. The makers of Zeitgeist and the people of the Venus project don't even know. They have ideas. Boycotting is one. And I think it's a great concept.

The point is that we don't know what the future holds. But we can hope and work towards a world where we're all equal. Where there is no elite. Again, how is that bad?

Religion, technology and control grids aside, we are all human beings and we DESERVE to occupy this planet equally. Spreading the message that we don't need an elite in order to survive is a positive one in my opinion.

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« Reply #2111 on: January 30, 2009, 08:51:55 AM »

Quote
I know what you mean. And I see why you're so skeptical and afraid of what will happen. But technology will increase EXPONENTIALLY! The technology of today, as advanced as we see it, is going to be very primitive to humans a thousand years from now. That's what I mean by advancing. But it's not just technology. Our understanding of who and what we are will also advance. Our spirituality will advance.

That is Theosophy. To advance spiritualy, to advance to the next plane of consiousness/existence. This is why we need spirit guides to help some people. So you are a Theosophist. Its not all about Maitreya.
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« Reply #2112 on: January 30, 2009, 08:57:21 AM »

That is Theosophy. To advance spiritualy, to advance to the next plane of consiousness/existence. This is why we need spirit guides to help some people. So you are a Theosophist. Its not all about Maitreya.

If you consider that I think that all religions hold a tiny bit of truth and that they could come together and do so much better than they do now, then you could consider me a Theosophist. I don't consider myself a Theosophist. Again, these are just my viewpoints. I think religion, Christianity, Judaism, or even Theosophy, seperates us. I think we should all come together. That's the message I think should be spread. Not seperatism.

I know many people who call themselves spiritual but not relgious. Are they Theosophists too? Be careful when painting people with the same brush. You do a great injustice to their intellects and individual ideas and you run the risk of maybe learning something you didn't know before.
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« Reply #2113 on: January 30, 2009, 09:29:36 AM »

If you consider that I think that all religions hold a tiny bit of truth and that they could come together and do so much better than they do now, then you could consider me a Theosophist. I don't consider myself a Theosophist. Again, these are just my viewpoints. I think religion, Christianity, Judaism, or even Theosophy, seperates us. I think we should all come together. That's the message I think should be spread. Not seperatism.

I know many people who call themselves spiritual but not relgious. Are they Theosophists too? Be careful when painting people with the same brush. You do a great injustice to their intellects and individual ideas and you run the risk of maybe learning something you didn't know before.

You can get defensive and play the victim, i care not. We are all painted some kind of label. Wether you claim spiritual or religion it is still all the same. What happens when we die, why are we here, where do we come from. You can blur the questions under different monikers yet they are all the same. Theosophy and the New-Age in general, have to many branches under it to label one strict idea. Yet the all claim an outside side force that to help achieve a new level of conciseness/ plane of existence. Be it space brothers, demons, hierarchy, Great white Lodge, Yogis, Shamans, Lucifer get the point. The theory of beliefs are all the same.

The UN and Z and ZA in general push this idea. If we all come together we can have a global consciousness, we can all be one. Yoga expresses the same idea Yoga= to yoke, to become one with, with what? The universal conciseness. They are even building machines to help this along. http://www.nowpublic.com/strange/global-consciousness-project-trans-humanity-awakening-reality

Heirarchy, expanded consciousness, walk-ins, space brothers, its all the same. Its the goal of the UN, the goal of the New-Agers, and the goal of the Zeitgeist movement.

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« Reply #2114 on: January 30, 2009, 09:43:50 AM »

Theosophy and the New-Age in general, have to many branches under it to label one strict idea.


I think you meant TOO many branches. I don't dispute that. The same could be said of Christianity, of Judaism, of Hinduism, etc. The point is that this seperates us.

Zeitgeist doesn't have a religious movement. I don't know that can be made any more clear. If you were born to a Muslim family, you would likely be Muslim. You would say that Christians are wrong. Who is right? Who knows? Maybe everyone's wrong. The point is, instead of worrying about our differences, we should focus on our similarities.

I'm not going to dispute religions with you, or New Age doctrines. Personally, I think they all do more harm than good.

I'm not getting defensive. You can call me a Theosophist, a devil worshipper, hell, you can call me a poopy head if you want to. Doesn't matter to me.

I know what I know and what I feel and I feel we are all one and need to work together as one; towards one common goal and that's for equality amongst all.

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« Reply #2115 on: January 30, 2009, 09:53:45 AM »

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I know what I know and what I feel and I feel we are all one and need to work together as one; towards one common goal and that's for equality amongst all.

The Theosophical Society is a worldwide association dedicated to practical realization of the oneness of all life and to independent spiritual search. It was founded in New York City in 1875 by Helena P. Blavatsky, Henry S. Olcott, William Q. Judge, and others. Blavatsky (1831-1891) is the primary force behind the modern theosophical movement. Her works and those of her teachers express the principal concepts of its philosophy. A Russian by birth, she traveled for twenty years in Europe, the Americas, Asia, and the Near East studying mysticism and occultism. Helena P. Blavatsky also wrote books titled Isis Unveiled and The Secret Doctrine .



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« Reply #2116 on: January 30, 2009, 09:59:02 AM »

Doktor, do you deny that we're not all connected on some level? Do you know the research that's been done on quantum physics? Are quantum physicists all Theosophists?  Cheesy

Blavatsky's name has been mentioned more in the last few days than it probably was when she was alive. Jeez, let her go man.
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« Reply #2117 on: January 30, 2009, 10:01:14 AM »

Where Zeitgeist/the Venus Project gets it right:
There is more automation today and less need for manual labor
Religion has always been a tool for division, spirituality is universal and also unique for each person
Their solutions:  http://www.breezedebris.com/2008/10/the-zeitgeist-m.html
Self sufficiency is necessary for real freedom

Where Zeitgeist/The Venus Project gets it wrong:
Limiting population is necessary
Global Warming is based on science
Their transition to resource management is non existent or fantasy land
Computers can do everything

I don't think zeitgeist is a total waste.  It has alot of good information.  I do think it needs some work to make it into a useable model.  The things that are tough to comprehend are:
1) A resource management model would require voting or buying into the renewable resource
2) Consumers options would initially be less due to non participation of their corrupt corporate governments

In other words, it would take people willing to do with less initially and experiment to find the best way to generate renewable resources.  It sounds alot like communism, but its more like going Amish with all the technology you want.  Also this system isn't funded by the Rockefellers and Rothschilds, its financed by the people who are in the system.  
I made a blog here: http://killfiat.blogspot.com for my thoughts on how this model can happen for communities.  
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« Reply #2118 on: January 30, 2009, 10:07:41 AM »

Where Zeitgeist/the Venus Project gets it right:
There is more automation today and less need for manual labor
Religion has always been a tool for division, spirituality is universal and also unique for each person
Their solutions:  http://www.breezedebris.com/2008/10/the-zeitgeist-m.html
Self sufficiency is necessary for real freedom

Where Zeitgeist/The Venus Project gets it wrong:
Limiting population is necessary
Global Warming is based on science
Their transition to resource management is non existent or fantasy land
Computers can do everything

I don't think zeitgeist is a total waste.  It has alot of good information.  I do think it needs some work to make it into a useable model.  The things that are tough to comprehend are:
1) A resource management model would require voting or buying into the renewable resource
2) Consumers options would initially be less due to non participation of their corrupt corporate governments

In other words, it would take people willing to do with less initially and experiment to find the best way to generate renewable resources.  It sounds alot like communism, only this one isn't funded by the Rockefellers and Rothschilds, its financed by the people who are in the system.  
I made a blog here: http://killfiat.blogspot.com for my thoughts on how this model can happen for communities.  

Actually, if you look on TheZeitgeistMovement.com, they actually mention Eugenics and they speak out AGAINST it. They say there's enough room for everyone, even if there's a population boom. In fact, here's the quote from the actual site:

For example, many people are worried about population growth on the planet, while very spooky comments by despotic figures like Henry Kissinger claim that some kind of "reduction" is needed. This is, of course, very scary. However, the real question remains: Is population growth really that bad? The answer is that from a scientific perspective the earth can handle many, many times more people if need be, once high technology is harnessed. 70% of our planet is water and cities in the sea ( one of many projects by Jacque Fresco ) are the next step. In turn, education about life operations will inform people as to the ramifications of their reproductive interests and population growth will naturally slow as people begin to realize how they are related to the planet and its carrying capacity.

Jesus, I don't even work for these people and I find myself defending it. Why? What's the point? Sane's right. I am fascinated by the implications. It just saddens me that people can't think beyond the current system, the current broken system, to see that there might be something better.

But the truth is that I could refute and debunk the debunkers all day until my fingers bled and it won't do a bit of good. Most have already made up their minds.

It's sad that we trounce new ideas because we're used to having our 'skepticals' on. While that's a good practice, we run the risk of actually discarding great ideas because they may be drastically different than we're used to.


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« Reply #2119 on: January 30, 2009, 10:49:08 AM »

Here's what concerns me:


[/b] In turn, education about life operations will inform people as to the ramifications of their reproductive interests and population growth will naturally slow as people begin to realize how they are related to the planet and its carrying capacity. [/b]


I've joined alot of groups who are into zeitgeist, on facebook, myspace and others and a disturbing trend is alot of them absorb the eugenics and global warming nonsense.  It's all over their message boards too.  Some zeitgeist people know eugenics is the end goal of any population limiting agenda, but alot of people just stopped at zeitgeist and haven't explored everything else. 

I totally agree that people have to be more open to other ideas.  I'm surprised this topic has survived so long without sane or one of the other moderators trashing the title or changing people's posts.  They do it alot when they don't agree with someone else.   

It's an ego thing and sometimes people can't see the solutions when the problems are their only focus.  The zeitgeist movement does offer a solution, but only to those who are active and able to think for themselves.
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